Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

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Lord of Riva
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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » January 24th, 2017, 10:21 am

Grotesque wrote:It's also funny because 17 hours ago, Adam Heine quoted in a tweet one of Infinitron's posts on the inXile forums with links to some reviews.

https://twitter.com/adamheine/status/823701205096370177
So he's active on forums but refuses to commnet about The Toy or respond on twitter

Again, most people are under Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) in game development he is probably simply not allowed to say something to this, please do not make it a personal issue because it is most certainly not. If you want to Bug someone about it you should probably contact Mr. Fargo instead and then i will not bug you if you rant about him not answering you.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Infinitron » January 24th, 2017, 2:53 pm

I think inXile have had a blanket policy of "Never admit anything negative on the forums" for a while. You saw it with the Wasteland 3 full party creation question too.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Grotesque » January 24th, 2017, 4:31 pm

Lord of Riva wrote:
Grotesque wrote:It's also funny because 17 hours ago, Adam Heine quoted in a tweet one of Infinitron's posts on the inXile forums with links to some reviews.

https://twitter.com/adamheine/status/823701205096370177
So he's active on forums but refuses to commnet about The Toy or respond on twitter

Again, most people are under Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) in game development he is probably simply not allowed to say something to this, please do not make it a personal issue because it is most certainly not. If you want to Bug someone about it you should probably contact Mr. Fargo instead and then i will not bug you if you rant about him not answering you.
So what would be the big disclosure in this case that deserves to be guarded with such zealotry? The already promised kickstarter stretch-goal companion named The Toy about which Adam Heine even wrote a mini design document on his blog?

The fact that they're duplicitous and they systematically ignore this subject is normal, and more important, morally acceptable in your opinion? Because why... good business practices?

So after the fact they disregard (dare I say - rather shamelessly) all the backer concerns, here you come with the same lame ass NDA excuse that doesn't hold water even if the life of your high horse depended on it and which in your opinion should make all this more digestible.

Get it through your thick skull: The Toy companion and its presence in the game is not the subject of an NDA, it is not some big secret that needs to be protected from competitors/backers to secure the upper hand in the cutthroat business the game industry is. This thread would become obsolete the moment a simple yes or no would be written by the right people. The acknowledgement of the existence or not of a promised and already talked about in-game feature.

But instead of wondering yourself why they're not allowed to talk about it and even debate the normalcy of it, you spew inept phrases like "personal issue" and act like Chris Crocker on a "Leave Adam Heine aloonee!!!" lamentation.

Even if there is one backer out there that for whatever reasoning would want his money back if it was cut out, he deserves to know about it.
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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Zombra » January 24th, 2017, 5:29 pm

Grotesque wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:Again, most people are under Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) in game development he is probably simply not allowed to say something to this.
So what would be the big disclosure in this case that deserves to be guarded with such zealotry?
It's not a question of maniacally guarding this one particular fact. If there is an NDA it almost certainly says something like "Don't talk about game content" - not "Don't talk about game content ... unless you think it's not a big deal in which case blab all you want." Nobody wants to lose their job over a question about whether a shmoo is in a video game.
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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » January 24th, 2017, 10:24 pm

Grotesque wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:
Grotesque wrote:It's also funny because 17 hours ago, Adam Heine quoted in a tweet one of Infinitron's posts on the inXile forums with links to some reviews.

https://twitter.com/adamheine/status/823701205096370177
So he's active on forums but refuses to commnet about The Toy or respond on twitter

Again, most people are under Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) in game development he is probably simply not allowed to say something to this, please do not make it a personal issue because it is most certainly not. If you want to Bug someone about it you should probably contact Mr. Fargo instead and then i will not bug you if you rant about him not answering you.
So what would be the big disclosure in this case that deserves to be guarded with such zealotry? The already promised kickstarter stretch-goal companion named The Toy about which Adam Heine even wrote a mini design document on his blog?

The fact that they're duplicitous and they systematically ignore this subject is normal, and more important, morally acceptable in your opinion? Because why... good business practices?

So after the fact they disregard (dare I say - rather shamelessly) all the backer concerns, here you come with the same lame ass NDA excuse that doesn't hold water even if the life of your high horse depended on it and which in your opinion should make all this more digestible.

Get it through your thick skull: The Toy companion and its presence in the game is not the subject of an NDA, it is not some big secret that needs to be protected from competitors/backers to secure the upper hand in the cutthroat business the game industry is. This thread would become obsolete the moment a simple yes or no would be written by the right people. The acknowledgement of the existence or not of a promised and already talked about in-game feature.

But instead of wondering yourself why they're not allowed to talk about it and even debate the normalcy of it, you spew inept phrases like "personal issue" and act like Chris Crocker on a "Leave Adam Heine aloonee!!!" lamentation.

Even if there is one backer out there that for whatever reasoning would want his money back if it was cut out, he deserves to know about it.
since i was under a NDA while developing a Video game i can tell you, you are completely wrong.

It is as zombra says NDAs are not for specific things but for all aspects of development.

Your behavior is pretty annoying, i am not attacking you nor am i defending Adam Heine, instead i tell you why you will most likely not get an answer and provide an alternative: Contacting the other party of the NDA which is most likely Brian Fargo.

You can either try it or continue achieving absolutely nothing. Im not sure why you would want that but it is your decision.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by Aramintai » January 25th, 2017, 4:34 am

PS4 trophy list is up (warning!! *SPOILERS*):
https://www.exophase.com/game/torment-t ... /trophies/
No mention of the Toy or other companion in the trophies, only those we've already seen in the beta. More proof it's not in the game, sigh :(
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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by fairfax » January 25th, 2017, 7:35 am

Vindicated. 8-)

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Jernaugh » January 25th, 2017, 8:21 am

fairfax wrote:They won't admit anything before release because they don't want bad word of mouth and forum outrage before the game's release. They want you to play the game and only realize they've been cut after playing for several hours, at which point you won't be able to request a refund anymore.
Now this, this doesn't make any sense at all. After all, within a day of release, people would know about the missing Toy and start review-bombing the game. In the long term, they stand to lose many, many more sales by doing this than by apologizing straight-up. The NDA thing makes a lot more sense. Still means that whoever can manage information and PR should be doing their best at getting some transparency up, even if it's Mr Fargo himself.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by fairfax » January 25th, 2017, 8:26 am

Jernaugh wrote:
fairfax wrote:They won't admit anything before release because they don't want bad word of mouth and forum outrage before the game's release. They want you to play the game and only realize they've been cut after playing for several hours, at which point you won't be able to request a refund anymore.
Now this, this doesn't make any sense at all. After all, within a day of release, people would know about the missing Toy and start review-bombing the game. In the long term, they stand to lose many, many more sales by doing this than by apologizing straight-up. The NDA thing makes a lot more sense. Still means that whoever can manage information and PR should be doing their best at getting some transparency up, even if it's Mr Fargo himself.
I don't think it makes sense either, but it's what they're doing. And nothing prevents Fargo from talking about. If he cared about transparency at all, he'd ressure backers himself or let other devs do it. It's absurd that we even have to ask about stretch goal content a month before release.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game?

Post by Infinitron » January 25th, 2017, 8:27 am

Jernaugh wrote:
fairfax wrote:They won't admit anything before release because they don't want bad word of mouth and forum outrage before the game's release. They want you to play the game and only realize they've been cut after playing for several hours, at which point you won't be able to request a refund anymore.
Now this, this doesn't make any sense at all. After all, within a day of release, people would know about the missing Toy and start review-bombing the game. In the long term, they stand to lose many, many more sales by doing this than by apologizing straight-up. The NDA thing makes a lot more sense. Still means that whoever can manage information and PR should be doing their best at getting some transparency up, even if it's Mr Fargo himself.
I don't think there's any NDA. It's a weird company culture thing.

I've been around here since Wasteland 2's development. One time, they refused to confirm that its release date was delayed until the last minute before it was supposed to come out. Why? Because that would be admitting something bad about the game.
Last edited by Infinitron on January 25th, 2017, 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by Jernaugh » January 25th, 2017, 8:40 am

I'm with you there. This is disappointing. Now, of course, the idea that this content has been cut comes from a community-driven action (datamining). The trophies themselves do not constitute proof positive, but they are certainly worrying. Expecting inXile to already have made the announcement may be a bit much., but now that the rumours are flying, it seems to be time to say something. The problems are adding up: the Toy, the Italian release problem, the Techland CE issue and so on...

I was led to expect better. There will be no more backing from me for inXile unless these concerns are addressed in a sufficiently timely fashion. By that, I mean some useful statement must be made before the game's actual release. I don't believe in backer refunds myself, but inXile has shown that they do - if they do value the backers as much as they say they do, then they should tell us about missing content in good enough time to allow for backers to ask for refunds if they want them.

I'm not soured on my investment yet - that will depend on the quality of the finished game, for which I still have very high hopes. But my trust as a backer has been shaken. That's a shame for inXile, because I'm definitely in the top percentile of money spent on this game as a backer. Sure, sheer numbers are what counts in crowdfunding, but if monetary investment is even a halfway decent measure of brand loyalty, this is shaking even the most loyal. And that's not even considering other users here who are upset who upheld fan communities for years. Fans are notoriously hard to please, but getting us this resentful requires quite a lot of missteps. For me, they can still be corrected, but they have to be addressed.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by anonymous6059 » January 26th, 2017, 4:48 am

Jernaugh wrote:I'm with you there. This is disappointing. Now, of course, the idea that this content has been cut comes from a community-driven action (datamining). The trophies themselves do not constitute proof positive, but they are certainly worrying. Expecting inXile to already have made the announcement may be a bit much., but now that the rumours are flying, it seems to be time to say something. The problems are adding up: the Toy, the Italian release problem, the Techland CE issue and so on...

I was led to expect better. There will be no more backing from me for inXile unless these concerns are addressed in a sufficiently timely fashion. By that, I mean some useful statement must be made before the game's actual release. I don't believe in backer refunds myself, but inXile has shown that they do - if they do value the backers as much as they say they do, then they should tell us about missing content in good enough time to allow for backers to ask for refunds if they want them.
I think you've got to take into account a few more bits of information. I too wasn't willing to accept this as proof at first. First, look at all the screenshots, trailers, and artwork. None of it shows The Toy. You have concept art for Tybir, Aligern, and a few more. I think you might have artwork for all 6 known companions. Second, is the datamining. I didn't take that as much proof because from my understanding it usually is a indicator of the opposite, that it is in the game. Now we have the Trophies and its safe to say The Toy has no "Significant" place in the game if it exist at all. The Toy was one of the first companion stretch goals. This wasn't some last minute goal. It was something that they'd discussed and promised us from the beginning. It is very worrisome to see almost no reassurances that it is in the game.

Anyway, I really just wanted to say thanks for letting Inxile know how you feel. I'd imagine that if anyone has the power to help get the message to Inxile it would be the "Super-Backers". So thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by Jernaugh » January 26th, 2017, 5:21 am

I have to add to my former statement that I simply do not know anything beyond the Kickstarter basics about the game's contents. I have been avoiding all information so as not to spoil anything for myself, so I don't know anything about the other companions or their concept art. The trophies (as I have already said) are pretty worrying. I'm still not convinced that there will definitely be no Toy, but as of now, it looks likely that it will either be a major Easter-Egg level secret (to the point where there are no trophies attached), it will be there, but completely gutted (no significant role in the game) or it won't be there.

I believe any of these three explanations are consistent with the current evidence (I'm not putting too much emphasis on datamining because I don't really know enough about it and how a developer might respond to its possibility in programming beta builds). Unfortunately, it does look like the "gutted" or "not there" explanations are more likely. That sucks. Either way, they need to *talk* to us, about this and the the other issues.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by D-D » January 26th, 2017, 5:27 am

Pillars 2 fig campaign is starting today, inXile will give them a shoutout - maybe talk about our questions as well... we can hope...

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by sear » January 26th, 2017, 8:50 am

Hi guys,

The companion roster has been slightly reduced from our initial plans. Throughout development on Torment, our philosophy has always emphasized depth and reactivity in our storyline and in our characters. We know you would not be satisfied with anything else. During development, we found that the more far reaching and reactive our companions were, the better they felt and the more justice it did to the original Planescape: Torment. This trade-off meant we were able to add more companion conversations, banter, voice-over, quests, and story endings. We did not want to leave some companions feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete, or be forced to shove them into the late game.

That said, we certainly haven't shut the door on Torment’s development. We still have a lot of early work done on other companions and are open to continuing to work on the game. We can say that any DLCs or expansions that we put out will always be free to our backers of that game, so there is no need to worry about paying for any additional content in Torment.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by Lord of Riva » January 26th, 2017, 9:09 am

sear wrote:Hi guys,

The companion roster has been slightly reduced from our initial plans. Throughout development on Torment, our philosophy has always emphasized depth and reactivity in our storyline and in our characters. We know you would not be satisfied with anything else. During development, we found that the more far reaching and reactive our companions were, the better they felt and the more justice it did to the original Planescape: Torment. This trade-off meant we were able to add more companion conversations, banter, voice-over, quests, and story endings. We did not want to leave some companions feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete, or be forced to shove them into the late game.

That said, we certainly haven't shut the door on Torment’s development. We still have a lot of early work done on other companions and are open to continuing to work on the game. We can say that any DLCs or expansions that we put out will always be free to our backers of that game, so there is no need to worry about paying for any additional content in Torment.
oh boy, now i believe the developement was truly troubled. Why the Toy? -_-

thanks for the information, these discussions about things we do not really know are always exhausting

EDIT: i will also say again that this could have been communicated way earlier. why are you guys so stingy with information? :?

i simply fail to understand it.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by Aramintai » January 26th, 2017, 9:27 am

Well, thanks for finally telling us, devs. I'm sad this happened though, the Toy was the most interesting companion in concept and more in line with weirdness of Numenera setting than any of the companions we know already. T:TON roster really pales in comparison with PS:T crazy cast. No aliens, abhumans, mutants or other weird creatures than fill Numenera world, only ordinary humans. I'm disappointed.

I suppose numenera crafting and codex are also out the window? Nothing was shown about those either.

Please, if the game sells well consider making those discarded stretch goals into free dlc, it would only be fair to the backers. And on your next campaign try not to deceive backers with promises you can't fulfill. I'm not sure I will be among them though, all things considered.
Last edited by Aramintai on January 26th, 2017, 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by fairfax » January 26th, 2017, 10:03 am

And some of you thought I was making it up. You're welcome, by the way. 8-)

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by IHaveHugeNick » January 26th, 2017, 10:08 am

Well, that's that.
Two rite whiff care is quite a feet of witch won should be proud.

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Re: Has The Toy companion been cut from the game? ($2M stretch goal)

Post by anonymous6059 » January 26th, 2017, 10:15 am

sear wrote:Hi guys,

The companion roster has been slightly reduced from our initial plans. Throughout development on Torment, our philosophy has always emphasized depth and reactivity in our storyline and in our characters. We know you would not be satisfied with anything else. During development, we found that the more far reaching and reactive our companions were, the better they felt and the more justice it did to the original Planescape: Torment. This trade-off meant we were able to add more companion conversations, banter, voice-over, quests, and story endings. We did not want to leave some companions feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete, or be forced to shove them into the late game.

That said, we certainly haven't shut the door on Torment’s development. We still have a lot of early work done on other companions and are open to continuing to work on the game. We can say that any DLCs or expansions that we put out will always be free to our backers of that game, so there is no need to worry about paying for any additional content in Torment.
Thank you for giving us a statement.
I understand that you may not be able to tell us who is and who isn't in the game. I still think it only fair though that you give us a number. We deserve to know how many companions are in the game at least. I personally understand the reduction in many ways, that is if the reactivity, banter, and depth actually turns out to be good. Something that we can't know until next month.

Please just give us a number. How many companions are in the game?
Side Request: Is The Specter a Companion? I'd imagine that he is since he has lots of dialogue and helps you fight The Sorrow early in the game.

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