Backers being shortchanged?

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kilobug
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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by kilobug » April 4th, 2017, 1:07 am

Atsuico wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 9:18 am
If you itemize the contents you are left with:
[snip]
Therefore even if you use the full retail price of $50 for the game you're still only talking about $75-$80 worth of product. Is the broken box I received really worth $75?
But that's a completely wrong way to look at things. Kickstarter isn't a shop. The purpose of Kickstarter is to finance the development of the game. Of course the physical rewards you get aren't "worth" the money you pay to get them, if they did, no money would be left for the development of the game and that would utterly defeat the whole point. Being a backer is giving money to inXile so they can develop the game, and the rewards you get are just incentive and ways to well, reward you for participating, but they are NOT supposed to be worth the money.

I backed TTON for over $300, and while it's true the physical goods are a bit "cheap", I'm glad I did, because the game itself is awesome and that's what most of the money was used for. And I'm also glad to get the novellas on paper (much better for reading than screen), a nice box in my bookcases, a nice map to go alongside with my Baldur's Gate 2 map and my Wing Commander map of the universe, a nice CD to go next to my LOTR OST, ...

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by rymek » April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am

kilobug wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 1:07 am
Atsuico wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 9:18 am
If you itemize the contents you are left with:
[snip]
Therefore even if you use the full retail price of $50 for the game you're still only talking about $75-$80 worth of product. Is the broken box I received really worth $75?
But that's a completely wrong way to look at things. Kickstarter isn't a shop. The purpose of Kickstarter is to finance the development of the game. Of course the physical rewards you get aren't "worth" the money you pay to get them, if they did, no money would be left for the development of the game and that would utterly defeat the whole point. Being a backer is giving money to inXile so they can develop the game, and the rewards you get are just incentive and ways to well, reward you for participating, but they are NOT supposed to be worth the money.
So you think that all the developers sell their games at cost of production and don't make any profit on sales? Following your logic we also should be ok if inXile send us even less (e.g. just a game cd + map) because since we kickstarted the project we shouldn't expect much in return. I agree that KS is not a shop, but there should be some balance between quality and price even for KS backers and in case of Torment CE I feel backers were shortchanged.

Or to put it differently - why would I ever again back inXile on Kickstarter rather then buy retail product version? Through KS I got inferior version and argument that more KS pledges = better game also doesn't seem to apply - additional content that was promised at stretch goals (e.g. The Toy that made me increase my pledge) were cut out anyway.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by kilobug » April 4th, 2017, 6:07 am

rymek wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am
So you think that all the developers sell their games at cost of production and don't make any profit on sales?
No, but the profit margin on sales is usually small.
rymek wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am
Following your logic we also should be ok if inXile send us even less (e.g. just a game cd + map) because since we kickstarted the project we shouldn't expect much in return.
They have to, as much as possible, keep their promises, and include what is supposed to be with a reasonable quality. But the whole logic of "how much it's worth" is not the logic to use with Kickstarter.
rymek wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am
Or to put it differently - why would I ever again back inXile on Kickstarter rather then buy retail product version?
Because if people don't pledge to the Kickstarter there will be no retail version at all, or a much smaller/limited one ? Backing a Kickstarter isn't about getting the best for your money, it's about allowing the creator to produce the game - it's art patronage much more than a shop. You can't apply the consumerist egoistic logic on Kickstarter, you need to think broader, collectively, not ask "what do I gain by doing it ?" but "what do we collectively gain if people like me do it ?" It's a kind of giant Prisoner's Dilemma, and defecting in a Prisoner's Dilemma leads to worst situation for everyone.
rymek wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am
Through KS I got inferior version and argument that more KS pledges = better game also doesn't seem to apply - additional content that was promised at stretch goals (e.g. The Toy that made me increase my pledge) were cut out anyway.
The Toy will be made as a free DLC later on, which wouldn't have been the case if people didn't back TTON as much as they did. But even when it's not the case, the money was still used to make the game better (and make it to exist at all), it's not like it was wasted.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Woolfe » April 4th, 2017, 6:13 pm

rymek wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 4:56 am
kilobug wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 1:07 am
Atsuico wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 9:18 am
If you itemize the contents you are left with:
[snip]
Therefore even if you use the full retail price of $50 for the game you're still only talking about $75-$80 worth of product. Is the broken box I received really worth $75?
But that's a completely wrong way to look at things. Kickstarter isn't a shop. The purpose of Kickstarter is to finance the development of the game. Of course the physical rewards you get aren't "worth" the money you pay to get them, if they did, no money would be left for the development of the game and that would utterly defeat the whole point. Being a backer is giving money to inXile so they can develop the game, and the rewards you get are just incentive and ways to well, reward you for participating, but they are NOT supposed to be worth the money.
So you think that all the developers sell their games at cost of production and don't make any profit on sales? Following your logic we also should be ok if inXile send us even less (e.g. just a game cd + map) because since we kickstarted the project we shouldn't expect much in return. I agree that KS is not a shop, but there should be some balance between quality and price even for KS backers and in case of Torment CE I feel backers were shortchanged.

Or to put it differently - why would I ever again back inXile on Kickstarter rather then buy retail product version? Through KS I got inferior version and argument that more KS pledges = better game also doesn't seem to apply - additional content that was promised at stretch goals (e.g. The Toy that made me increase my pledge) were cut out anyway.
As the other guys are saying. KS isn't a shop.

The goal is to fund the game. If they only use KS funds to make the game, then any further sales are almost pure profit. If they use other funds (their own money, other investors) then Sales will be need to pay back those elements in addition to the KS.

None of the KS money is "profit" it goes to the resources used to develop the game, this includes the cost of physical content. Physical content costs generally far outweigh the "benefit" received.

Honestly if I were them I would drop physical altogether and then do a deal with whoever to provide that sort of stuff at an additional cost after the game is developed.
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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Atsuico » April 4th, 2017, 9:47 pm

I think some of you are misunderstanding how kickstarter works as well. While there certainly are fundraisers on kickstarter where your return isn't a tangible item you receive personally, this was not marketed in that way. It was marketed as a pre-sale of a product in development, in that you will receive X items for Y amount of money. Nothing in their campaign gave an impression that part of a backers contribution is out of good will or for a donation to the good of the cause. They pitched the sales in packages, and the collectors edition package was marketed as a collection of high quality pieces. If some backers wanted to give money for the good of just having the game made so be it, but my wallet isn't goodwill.

Aside from all this my post was only to explain a valid reason for dissatisfaction; I see nothing wrong with that. I'm not seeking compensation for a loss or asking for a refund, and was well aware of the risk of kickstarter. Simply put there was not an equal exchange of value in the Collectors Edition deal.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Gizmo » April 5th, 2017, 1:20 am

Atsuico wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 9:47 pm
I think some of you are misunderstanding how kickstarter works as well. While there certainly are fundraisers on kickstarter where your return isn't a tangible item you receive personally, this was not marketed in that way. It was marketed as a pre-sale of a product in development, in that you will receive X items for Y amount of money. Nothing in their campaign gave an impression that part of a backers contribution is out of good will or for a donation to the good of the cause.
Didn't the prices themselves do that? (And if not... wasn't the minimum 'purchase', a "thank you for your support" —that garnered no digital or physical goods? )

I certainly understood that it was money to make the game —and that you got one when they existed. I can attest that I never once imagined that I was in the market for a WL2 branded replica ammo box, and a grey plastic army-man figure, a mapkin, and an iron-on Ranger's patch. None of these would I have ever bought [nor have use for] individually; and I had no plans of keeping the boxed set unopened. The CE is neat to have for its own sake, but not something I'd ever scrutinize the individual pieces of. I bought into the kickstarter to see the game made. I wasn't entirely happy with the game either, but I got exactly what I gave the money for... I got to play the finished game; and that's what was important.

I could have just as easily [instead] bought the digital game three times... but I'd have had even less use for the extra two copies than the CE extras. I'm totally happy with the way WL2 worked out —as far as the Kickstarter side of it goes. 8-) (And the game was good, as a bonus.)

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Akagi » April 5th, 2017, 10:49 am

kilobug wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 1:07 am
Atsuico wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 9:18 am
If you itemize the contents you are left with:
[snip]
Therefore even if you use the full retail price of $50 for the game you're still only talking about $75-$80 worth of product. Is the broken box I received really worth $75?
But that's a completely wrong way to look at things. Kickstarter isn't a shop. The purpose of Kickstarter is to finance the development of the game. Of course the physical rewards you get aren't "worth" the money you pay to get them, if they did, no money would be left for the development of the game and that would utterly defeat the whole point. Being a backer is giving money to inXile so they can develop the game, and the rewards you get are just incentive and ways to well, reward you for participating, but they are NOT supposed to be worth the money.

I backed TTON for over $300, and while it's true the physical goods are a bit "cheap", I'm glad I did, because the game itself is awesome and that's what most of the money was used for. And I'm also glad to get the novellas on paper (much better for reading than screen), a nice box in my bookcases, a nice map to go alongside with my Baldur's Gate 2 map and my Wing Commander map of the universe, a nice CD to go next to my LOTR OST, ...
Ah, the good ol "Kickstarter is pretty much a charity" argument.

But no, nope.

I'm backing KS stuff for like 5 years and probably have near or over 10k$ in backed projects, and never, ever, i felt so goddamn fucked like i did from TToN campaign.

If the kickstarter is legit, you are ALWAYS getting more value for your dollar than the guy who did not back the project and just bought it later for the retail price.

TTON kickstarter was a scam in my book, thats all there is to it.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Atsuico » April 5th, 2017, 10:53 am

Gizmo wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:20 am
Didn't the prices themselves do that? (And if not... wasn't the minimum 'purchase', a "thank you for your support" —that garnered no digital or physical goods? )
No, the price of the game is to make the game. That would be whatever they were charging for it at the time, $30-$45 as it changed throughout the kickstarter. The material goods are an incentive for backers to donate more upfront, and in exchange for their trust and donation, to be reasonably compensated when all is said and done. Also people keep comparing it to other inxile kickstarters of the past, this is irrelevant because while it may have set a precedent to those that donated in the past, others who haven't have no idea how they handle things and could only relate by way of their marketing promises.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by kilobug » April 5th, 2017, 12:44 pm

Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 10:49 am
Ah, the good ol "Kickstarter is pretty much a charity" argument.
Not a charity, but art patronage. The purpose of Kickstarter is to fund games (and other creative projects). That's its purpose, to allow creators to pursue their vision. And our main reward is the created artistic work, the game. All the rest is fluff to gather more money. And sure it's nice to get more reward when you are ready to give more money to make the game better - but we should never forget what's the goal (funding the game) and what's the main reward (the game). And since TTON is the best CRPG in years, with an awesome world and writing and quests and ... that is worthy of the Torment name, we got what we paid for, even if the physical goods are a bit cheaper than we might have hoped for (and they aren't that bad either).

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Akagi » April 5th, 2017, 1:22 pm

kilobug wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 12:44 pm
Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 10:49 am
Ah, the good ol "Kickstarter is pretty much a charity" argument.
And since TTON is the best CRPG in years, with an awesome world and writing and quests and ... that is worthy of the Torment name, we got what we paid for).
After reading this i'm starting to suspect that my CE box had some kind of faulty version of a game as well. Perphaps they mailed me the pre-alpha version by mistake :o

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Gizmo » April 5th, 2017, 1:39 pm

Atsuico wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 10:53 am
The material goods are an incentive for backers to donate more upfront, and in exchange for their trust and donation, to be reasonably compensated when all is said and done.
If you mean paid back in full —via collectible goods, then what is the point of the additional money (if they have to pay it back through the shipping and manufacturing costs of extras)?

One has to expect a mark-up —otherwise why bother to do it?

I know an artist who used to hire a few friends on occasion to help her make craft items to sell at upcoming shows. One of her friends asked her why she wouldn't hire this other lady (also her friend) to make the items, the response shocked them —but shouldn't have! She said that the lady works to slow to make enough of the items to sell... to which she was then [wrongly] chided, "But She is your friend!, you should help your friends!".

Image

So (of course) the response to that was that if the lady cannot make enough items to sell, then the [artist] cannot make enough money to pay the lady. This shocked the epiphany into the other person, and they finally understood what they apparently couldn't before.

InXile is a business, and it costs them money to do nothing; they cannot afford to just make the game at cost. The real cost from the Kickstarter funding is to afford having InXile Studios make the game... This should come at a sane mark up. If something in the CE cost them ten dollars, then they can't sell it to you for ten dollars.
Last edited by Gizmo on April 5th, 2017, 2:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by kilobug » April 5th, 2017, 1:54 pm

Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:22 pm
After reading this i'm starting to suspect that my CE box had some kind of faulty version of a game as well. Perphaps they mailed me the pre-alpha version by mistake :o
Are you serious ? Name one recent game with such an awesome and original world-building, quests, characters, ... as TTON ? As for pre-alpha... the game actually has very few bugs which is quite uncommon for CRPGs - most tend to be much more buggy at release than TTON was.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by cryocore » April 5th, 2017, 4:45 pm

kilobug wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:54 pm
Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:22 pm
After reading this i'm starting to suspect that my CE box had some kind of faulty version of a game as well. Perphaps they mailed me the pre-alpha version by mistake :o
Are you serious ? Name one recent game with such an awesome and original world-building, quests, characters, ... as TTON ? As for pre-alpha... the game actually has very few bugs which is quite uncommon for CRPGs - most tend to be much more buggy at release than TTON was.
Uh, that makes the assumption that people agree that TToN actually does any of these things. It really doesn't, Pillars of Eternity is vastly superior, and it uses a far more generic setting than this. TToN for a lot of people is not a great game. Its ok, and thats about it. The various user reviews, and Steam ratings illustrate this.
Thankfully Planescape: Torment is getting the Enhanced Edition treatment so at least there is an actual fantastic 'new' Torment game to play.
Last edited by cryocore on April 5th, 2017, 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Woolfe » April 5th, 2017, 5:20 pm

cryocore wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 4:45 pm
kilobug wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:54 pm
Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 1:22 pm
After reading this i'm starting to suspect that my CE box had some kind of faulty version of a game as well. Perphaps they mailed me the pre-alpha version by mistake :o
Are you serious ? Name one recent game with such an awesome and original world-building, quests, characters, ... as TTON ? As for pre-alpha... the game actually has very few bugs which is quite uncommon for CRPGs - most tend to be much more buggy at release than TTON was.
Uh, that makes the assumption that people agree that TToN actually does any of these things. It really doesn't, Pillars of Eternity is vastly superior, and it uses a far more generic setting than this. TToN for a lot of people is not a great game. Its ok, and thats about it.
Thankfully Planescape: Torment is getting the Enhanced Edition treatment so at least there is an actual fantastic 'new' Torment game to play.
Still making out that you talk for everyone hey. "For a lot of people" Can you quantify that.. Is a lot of people 2, 6, 17???

Let me guess you are the official spokeperson of these amorphous "lot of people"
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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Atsuico » April 5th, 2017, 9:19 pm

Woolfe wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 5:20 pm

Still making out that you talk for everyone hey. "For a lot of people" Can you quantify that.. Is a lot of people 2, 6, 17???

Let me guess you are the official spokeperson of these amorphous "lot of people"
Please address Kilobug as well since he seems to think that "WE" all think "WE" got what "WE" paid for.
kilobug wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 12:44 pm
And since TTON is the best CRPG in years, with an awesome world and writing and quests and ... that is worthy of the Torment name, we got what we paid for, even if the physical goods are a bit cheaper than we might have hoped for (and they aren't that bad either).
I'm not going to argue sales and finances with you, if you're happy great. You want me to respect the fact that you like the game, no problem; then respect that some of us are not happy with the game and other deals. I'm not going into threads where people are praising Numenera and trying to convince them they're wrong and the game sucks, so I'm not sure why some are trying to convince members who don't agree that we really "got what we paid for" and should be praising a supreme diety for another amazing Torment game.

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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Drool » April 5th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Akagi wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 10:49 am
I'm backing KS stuff for like 5 years and probably have near or over 10k$ in backed projects, and never, ever, i felt so goddamn fucked like i did from TToN campaign.
I must compliment you on your astounding luck, then. The fact that I actually received a finished product (regardless of quality) puts T:ToN above almost half a dozen projects I've backed.
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Re: Backers being shortchanged?

Post by Woolfe » April 6th, 2017, 8:14 pm

Atsuico wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 9:19 pm
Woolfe wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 5:20 pm

Still making out that you talk for everyone hey. "For a lot of people" Can you quantify that.. Is a lot of people 2, 6, 17???

Let me guess you are the official spokeperson of these amorphous "lot of people"
Please address Kilobug as well since he seems to think that "WE" all think "WE" got what "WE" paid for.
kilobug wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 12:44 pm
And since TTON is the best CRPG in years, with an awesome world and writing and quests and ... that is worthy of the Torment name, we got what we paid for, even if the physical goods are a bit cheaper than we might have hoped for (and they aren't that bad either).
I'm not going to argue sales and finances with you, if you're happy great. You want me to respect the fact that you like the game, no problem; then respect that some of us are not happy with the game and other deals. I'm not going into threads where people are praising Numenera and trying to convince them they're wrong and the game sucks, so I'm not sure why some are trying to convince members who don't agree that we really "got what we paid for" and should be praising a supreme diety for another amazing Torment game.
Sure...

Kilobug, don't speak for others... You are not representative of everyone :D

Although the fact that you had already done it makes mine unnecessary, had no one addressed it to him previously?

Cause I addressed it with Cryo, something like 2 or 3 posts before in a different thread. He is now ignoring me I believe. *chuckle*

(Squeaky wheel is a real and existing problem with Customer Support, and is actually pretty easy to identify, but of course when they are YOUR customers you just grin and bear it. Fortunately that's not my issue in this case.)
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