report grievances for the current game build

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Pimpollo818
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report grievances for the current game build

Post by Pimpollo818 » December 21st, 2016, 9:36 am

game loves taking control of the camera away from you, was this the intent? and what's up with the hand-holdy god awful Crises Objective hints. it's like playing a point-n-click with the hints forced on. DECLINE

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sear
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by sear » December 21st, 2016, 9:50 am

Pimpollo818 wrote:game loves taking control of the camera away from you, was this the intent? and what's up with the hand-holdy god awful Crises Objective hints. it's like playing a point-n-click with the hints forced on. DECLINE
Heya! I saw your comment on Kickstarter, but happy to reply here:
  • The Crisis Objectives can be hidden by using the arrow button on the panel.
  • You can turn on "Free Combat Camera" in the game's Options menu to remove the auto-centering in Crisis mode.
  • You can also change the camera behavior in the Options - default is Hybrid (auto-follows with movement, plus edge-scrolling), but you can change it for pure Edge Scrolling (Infinity Engine style) or fully locked Follow mode.
Regarding the Crisis Objectives in general, those are intended to surface possibilities you might miss, but they do not reveal every possible option outright. You might notice the first couple of encounters are a little more directed, that's by design so people can smoothly learn the system. Later ones show fewer details since we can rely on players having more sense of how the game works.

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Infinitron » December 21st, 2016, 10:23 am

Why the heck can't you add an option to have the Crisis Objectives hidden by default?

Prime Junta's post from RPG Codex: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.ph ... st-4884326
Initial impressions of this build (very brief, gotta go off to work now):

Pro: a great deal more polished; the UI looks solid, performance is much improved, jaggies eliminated, etcetera
Con: a lot of the changes are obvious dumbing down -- the health bar instead of stat pools, that "Current Objective" pane that pops up during crises (and no, there's no option to disable it)

I'm not sure how it was before, but the way the screen centres on whoever's turn it is during a crisis is distracting and feels console-y.

We'll see how it feels when I get a bit further, but initial impressions are ... not altogether good. It's like somebody on high has told them that this is too hard for the modern gamer so make it 'more accessible.'
Okay fired it up again.

Clearly not perfected yet. I saved my progress in the morning, but can't continue -- the Load Game screen hangs and the Continue button is grayed out. So starting over.
...
Camera is awfully lively. It zooms and pans on its own whenever I focus on something significant, with "kinetic" acceleration too, instead of being only crisply mouse-controlled. Would work great on a controller, mouse and keyboard, not so much...
...
Made a Wrathful Glaive. Wanna see how that plays out. Conversation with the Spectre was more infodumpy than I remember it from the last build. Lots of "What are you?" and "Who's hunting me?" and "So this is my mind, huh?"
...
Yuuuuge "Crisis Initiated" notification, with "Current Objective: Kill the reflections anchoring the Sorrow to your mind" in a panel. FUCK FUCK FUCK this is SO non-Torment. Fuck console kiddies to Baator and InEptile with them. This is NOT what I Kickstarted!!! :argh:
...
Camera is jumping around a LOT during the crisis. Very irritating.
...
This does look pretty though. The UI, icons, and environment art blend together a lot better than before, and the pretty-boy Last Castoff portrait fits well too. Visually it's quite close in style to the Numenera sourcebooks (which is not a bad thing).
...
Voice acting is still bad. Actors carefully reading their lines from a paper, enunciating clearly and speaking slowly.
...
Big "Quest Received" notification. What's wrong with "Updated my journal" FFS?
...
Aligern's and Callistege's new portrait art looks gud. But man this start is infodumpy. A bit less than in the first beta, for sure, but still this is no Mortuary with its glorious sense of WTF and mysteries everywhere.
...
Taking a look at the character sheet. It looks very pretty and Numenera. Cyphers are arranged in two rings with nodes, some of which are locked. The inner ring represents cyphers I can carry without cypher sickness, the outer ring, with cypher sickness. Guess my absolute, hard cypher limit is the number of empty nodes, but I'd probably be dead of Hiroshima syndrome before I hit that anyway. Hooly shit, Aligern has a cypher limit of 5 already, what an awesome mule, I know whom I'm gonna dump out of the gate.

They've tinkered with the basic Cypher System mechanics a quite a lot. There are four new stats: Health, Resistance, Evasion, and Willpower; each of the Pools affects these stats. Don't know yet if these secondary defensive stats will go down as my pools drain. I never was a huge fan of the Numenera mechanics, but I still think this is a bit of a shame -- they were different and these changes dilute this uniqueness quite a bit as well as making things murkier overall. Perhaps they were necessary for gameplay balance reasons or something though. There's no indication of how Health is calculated, other than that Might contributes 1:1. I have 28 Heath and 8 Might so that 20 Health came from somewhere.

I have a bunch of abilities not from the PnP game, like Opportunist that lets me forgo an attack on my turn to get an AOO with bonus on the enemy's turn, if applicable. I also picked Hook which lets me pull an enemy to me. Could also have picked Taunt which does what you'd expect it to. Other than that I'm good at Intimidation and excel at Smashing and Heavy Weapons.

Max Effort is 2 right out of the gate. That is in my opinion rather derp as Effort tends to trivialise things anyway. IMO would've been better to leave it at 1 like in the rulebook.

My Journal is 100% new-skool modurn. Neatly organised into Main Quest, Secondary Quests, with Quest Objectives listed in 3d grade English.
...
Loading screens look purty.
...
Bloody hell this self-moving camera is annoying. When the clock spouted those energy things, the camera just HAD to centre on each of them at a time, to make absolutely sure I noticed.
...
I really don't like the moment-to-moment interaction here. It's that camera and the way it stops taking inputs whenever there's an animation of something happening. It makes it plod, and takes away the feeling of being in control. Pillars got this bit perfectly right (basically by carefully imitating the Infinity Engine). Why did they feel the need to change it? I suppose it'll look cool on a Let's Play video and of course it'll work better if you're playing with a controller rather than a mouse that lets you pan with a flick of the wrist. It even does it in mid-conversation if there's more than one character involved -- every time one of them speaks (even if there's no VO), the camera centres on them.

Also, the UI animation when I interact with things is starting to grate. It's very smooth and all, but it is much more intrusive than a UI that just mostly stays put. That pretty UI is very much in-your-face actually, like when you hold down the Tab button to highlight interactables, the icons for Look and Interact are really huge and obvious, much moreso than the subtle highlight used in the IE or Pillars.

The whole thing is really busy and really, really idiot-proofed. :argh:
...
And they still didn't find the time to fix those flagstones. :(
...
Okay, that's enough for now, that self-moving camera is giving me a migraine.

tl;dr I am not a fan of where this thing is going. The stuff that was good is still good (lotsa writing, some of it pretty neat, quest resolutions etc), but apart from general polish (which they've done a lot of) this isn't any more enjoyable to play, the opposite in fact. :decline:

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by FeelTheRads » December 21st, 2016, 11:24 am

sear wrote:
  • The Crisis Objectives can be hidden by using the arrow button on the panel.
So we have to do this for each and every one of them? And what guarantee do I have that I won't unintentionally read it before being able to close it?

Great design, I can imagine the thought process that went into designing this consisted of heatbutting a wall.
Regarding the Crisis Objectives in general, those are intended to surface possibilities you might miss, but they do not reveal every possible option outright. You might notice the first couple of encounters are a little more directed, that's by design so people can smoothly learn the system. Later ones show fewer details since we can rely on players having more sense of how the game works.
If those possibilities are optional why to the need highlight in the first place?
Just give me a break, it's simply hand-holding no matter how much you want to sugar coat it. And it's forced hand-holding too.
Oh wow, we rely on players to learn how the game works, but we'll still force hints on you all the time.

Indeed, amazing design.

How about just letting the players figure out the game if they want to? Crazy idea, right? Probably not something your publisher allows you to do. After all, we funded this game so it's being directed by publishers, did we not?

Fry
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Fry » December 21st, 2016, 11:41 am

"Free" mode doesn't seem to change camera centering much for me. In the tutorial crisis at least, it's still very aggressive.

FeelTheRads
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by FeelTheRads » December 21st, 2016, 11:45 am

Also, another proof that you are completely clueless about what you're doing:
If in the first crises you get all options in the "objectives" but not in the later, then this player you're supposedly help won't really understand that there are other options in the later ones that he can discover. He will just understand that there's only those listed in the objectives.
For this to work as intended then first, say, two crises should have hints and after that tell the player "hey, try stuff like this in the next ones as well" and that's it. No more.

As it is, you're simply limiting what the players will do to what you list in the objectives. Not many people will bother to try stuff not listed in what is essentially an on-screen walkthrough.

Completely clueless.

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Fry » December 21st, 2016, 12:19 pm

Even outside of crises and in "free" mode, the camera jumps around like a rabbit on crack. The constant re-centering on whichever character is speaking in dialogs is really annoying.

dsc106
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by dsc106 » December 21st, 2016, 12:35 pm

I only played the first beta for a couple hours, and then briefly dipped into this one to see the changes.

WOW. MUCH BETTER. That was my first impression. So seriously, well done, this really is a massive step up.

Reading this post, though, I can see people's points on further reflection. So let me add a few things for the devs...

I consider myself somewhat hardcore (not to the extent of some here), being 32 and gaming since I was 2 and growing up with old, dense games etc. and never owning a console. I will say that I actually APPRECIATED a lot of the new interface and design work, and I think there is room for both. The last beta was really annoyingly difficult to discern information clearly, so the new larger fonts in Crises, much better graphical display of information, etc. is very welcome to me. The graphics also look much sharper and smoother, and the UI was light years better in terms of design.

The new beta made me much more excited for the final release. I can't wait.

AND TO CLARIFY: I didn't get too far as I am saving my experience for the actual release, so I can't comment on where some of the improvements might go wrong later, like the camera jumping around like a rabbit on crack or what not. These are just initial impressions of the new visual design etc. Also, I am not referring to hints. I didn't get past some of the initial tutorial stuff because I don't want to get too far, but I assumed some of the hand-holding tutorials were only in the initial phases?... is this not the case later into the game? Tutorials and hints make sense up front. Of course, no (hardcore) gamer wants to have the satisfaction of figuring something out removed. I appreciate early on being guided through some examples of possibilities so I understand the design of the game, but I do hope later Crisis events etc. don't keep telling you what to do and making it super obvious what your three options are (unless you opt to turn this on).

That said, GRIEVANCES - and this comes from reading here and relating to people's feelings on some of these:

1.) I noticed the options menu was relatively sparse, and when I wondered what some things meant on mouse-over (Feedback on Tides, for example), there was no tooltip. Where are the tool tips?! Yes, I can guess what this means or look it up easily, but that's not the point. EVERY MENU OPTION NEEDS TO HAVE A TOOL TIP! I want to have this explained, right there in the game. Second, WHERE ARE ALL THE OPTIONS? Objective markers, camera centering, etc. all should have options so that people can tweak and customize to their preferences. That would solve so many of the gripes here and easily make everyone happy. And they should all have a good tool tip explanation. (Though I am of course not discounting disabling options in lieu of *FIXING* the problems with good new features, such as sporadic camera or something. It just seems some people want a much more stripped down experience, or would prefer to hide all markers, or remove some visual feedback or decrease font sizes etc.)

2.) I actually wish some of the information was a little bit clearer still. For example, I noticed this right away on the first crisis. The information for "double move" where the line changes to purple isn't super clear. Don't get me wrong, I spent a minute or two on it and it makes sense, but it wasn't "Blizzard" or "XCOM" level of clarity. It just felt a level down in polish. The purple line is thin, the visual feedback not quite as strong as it could be. A little pop up along with this and/or a thicker purple that indicates very clearly would be a step up in polish. I felt like I had to work to discern the interface more than I should. I want to work hard on a game, but I want the hard work to be on story, choices, strategy - not at figuring out what is going to happen if I click a button because I don't feel the game/interface design is making that sufficiently obvious.

Same for when I went to use the glass shard, I had to double check and was unclear after clicking on it if in fact it was active. I clicked, and clicked again, with no visual feedback. Was the glass shard selected? Was I now going to attack with the glass shard? Well, I assume so. So I clicked, and yes my character threw it. I wasn't entirely sure if he was going to throw it, or move in for melee range and stab. I'm sure this is obvious if you have spent hours with the game, but compared to most modern games it's poor design. The glass shard icon should have had some sort of animated glow to it to indicate it was active. My cursor should have perhaps had some sort of feedback (either text or visual) as to what would happen "throw glass shard, 80% chance of hit? 100% chance?"

I would give this some thought.


////

So to balance out some of the feedback here, as a long time gamer who isn't one that plays old school isometric RPGs all day but still appreciates them, the added visual feedback and some of the more modern mechanics are actually very welcome to me - not because I don't want depth (I most certainly do, and do not want "dumbing down"), but because I do not want to be fighting lack of clarity in design and UI. Blizzard is such a master of this. Overwatch and SC2 are both very deep in mechanics, but insanely easy to understand. The Overwatch HUD and menu designs are master class. For a game with so much going on, it's ridiculously easy to understand. Same with SC2, and Firaxis XCOM 2.

On the flip side, while I am enjoying Tyranny, I am constantly annoyed by how obtuse some of it's visual display is. Torment was literally LIGHT YEARS better than that. So big props. The combat systems are so much cleaner and clearer here. Major props in my opinion (I know some will disagree), but Tyranny is a great game with what feels like amateur visual feedback. I commented to a friend that in Tyranny, the combat often feels like a giant blob of characters stacked. In Tyranny, I have to work way too hard and discerning which character is which (poor, indistinct models), overly small UI elements, etc. Some people think that is depth, I think you can make something with just as much depth and ALL the same mechanics and info, displayed cleaner. So good job, keep it up, and I do think there is room here in Torment for additional improvements. I was definitely impressed with the improvements over previous beta.

Because I don't think this has to be a win-lose, I just wanted to give some positive feedback and say how great I think some of the more crystal clear design is (it helps me focus on the game more, and less on fighting an unclear interface), and actually see some areas for even further improvement in clarity. But I also see no reason why more menu options can't be given (and perhaps even a preset of "standard" and "hardcore" with customization options). From reading here it sounds like there are some definite problems that need to be addressed and smoothed out there as well.
Last edited by dsc106 on December 21st, 2016, 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dsc106
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by dsc106 » December 21st, 2016, 12:49 pm

Oh, and why can't I bind my additional mouse buttons in the key bindings? I can't set my character sheet or map to a button 4 or 5 in mouse?

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Astralune » December 21st, 2016, 3:48 pm

I only started playing the beta a couple of days before the new build dropped, and I played through some of the new build yesterday.

The new build, IMO, is a great improvement over the previous beta version. I didn't feel like I had grasped how combat / character stats worked before, and now I think I've gotten a much better grasp on it thanks to the UI improvements and tutorials. Speaking of UI, so much better - a lot of the mouseover text is legible now, and looks pretty slick. I feel like the information I want to access is being bubbled up to me a lot better, so big thumbs up for the UI changes.

Thumbs up for the tutorials too - I'm approaching this as someone who doesn't know how the game rules work, so having them there was very helpful.

That said, while I didn't have a problem with it, if people want different camera options or objective tracker defaults, there's no reason not to have the option there.

Overall, the change between the builds felt to me like a lot of polish had been done on this part of the game, so, from me at least, good work!

Ranneko
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Ranneko » December 22nd, 2016, 12:22 pm

Frustrating to see that it still defaults to opening on Monitor 1, rather than the primary monitor. This was reported in the second beta build - viewtopic.php?f=47&t=15804

Same workaround still works, but frustrating nonetheless. Still no option to select monitor in the game either.

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Lord of Riva
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Lord of Riva » December 24th, 2016, 3:25 am

are the other Foci in now?

Are they interesting if they are?

played Alpha and beta not gonna touch it again until full release, otherwise i may end up never finishing it :P

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Anaeme » December 24th, 2016, 8:33 am

They need to focus on the abnormal camera movement

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sear
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by sear » January 19th, 2017, 10:43 am

Hey guys, forgive the necro here, but I just wanted to mention that we'll be adding a game option to turn off the crisis objectives element on screen if you don't want it. Thanks for your feedback!

As a clarification, none of the crisis encounters were ever designed with the objectives element in mind, so by turning them off you aren't necessarily going to lose out on any content.

Pimpollo818
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Pimpollo818 » January 19th, 2017, 2:51 pm

*brofists*

Fischer
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by Fischer » January 19th, 2017, 9:56 pm

sear wrote:Hey guys, forgive the necro here, but I just wanted to mention that we'll be adding a game option to turn off the crisis objectives element on screen if you don't want it. Thanks for your feedback!

As a clarification, none of the crisis encounters were ever designed with the objectives element in mind, so by turning them off you aren't necessarily going to lose out on any content.
That's pretty great, Eric. Now could you guys take a look at the camera movements, too? There's been pretty clear feedback, that it's incredibly annoying, when the camera wrests control from you whenever you initiate a conversation or actually perform actions. It feels "slow" and somewhat choppy.
The Last Castoff also seems to move abit weirdly, since running and stopping feels slow and unresponsive.

Also, I'm not sure how much the UI will change from the beta to full build from now, if any at all, but you should definitely think about not cluttering the screen with too much stuff. And also making the UI more responsive to input from the player.
// Daedalos // Intinium

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dorkboy
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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by dorkboy » January 21st, 2017, 9:04 am

sear wrote:Hey guys, forgive the necro here, but I just wanted to mention that we'll be adding a game option to turn off the crisis objectives element on screen if you don't want it. Thanks for your feedback!

As a clarification, none of the crisis encounters were ever designed with the objectives element in mind, so by turning them off you aren't necessarily going to lose out on any content.
Glad to hear it! Quality of life improvements like that all add up! :D
marmelade & jam

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Re: report grievances for the current game build

Post by CottonWolf » January 21st, 2017, 9:40 am

sear wrote:Hey guys, forgive the necro here, but I just wanted to mention that we'll be adding a game option to turn off the crisis objectives element on screen if you don't want it. Thanks for your feedback!

As a clarification, none of the crisis encounters were ever designed with the objectives element in mind, so by turning them off you aren't necessarily going to lose out on any content.
Good decision!

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