Patch progress update?

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Aerothorn
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Patch progress update?

Post by Aerothorn » May 13th, 2017, 7:09 pm

I admit I've been pretty surprised at the radio silence for the next patch. I still haven't finished the game because there is a quest-breaking bug in 1.02 (already reported) that I was told the devs were aware of, which I assume means a fix in the next patch.

I'm pretty patient, but almost three months in without blocker-bugs fixed is disappointing; but my bigger frustration is no KS updates, no twitter updates, nothing to indicate when this will be resolved.

kilobug
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by kilobug » May 13th, 2017, 11:43 pm

They are working on the content patch (adding "the Toy", the Codex, ...) I'm not sure there will be a bug-fixing patch before the content patch. So we have to be patient...

Aerothorn
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Aerothorn » May 14th, 2017, 11:52 am

I get that content patches take a while. That's fine - I'm in no hurry for that. I do want to finish the game as originally released, and that means not having total lock-ups when I try to finish a quest.

I've never played an RPG where the basic bug fixes were held back to be bundled with post-release content, and I don't get why they are doing it; does it have to do with the consoles (they can't afford a round of certification for the bug patch?) If so, at least give it to PC players?

But really I just want clear communication. If I knew what was going on, why, when I could expect a bug patch, that would be great.

As it is I've really enjoyed what I've played of the game and thinking that Inxile did a wonderful job. I wish I could write them a positive review to counterbalance all the bad ones on Steam- but I haven't finished it yet, and the experience will be significantly soured from having played it in jolting starts and stops from release to now (release-till first game breaking bug, then release of patch 1.02 to next game-breaking bug, then resuming next patch...)

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phimseto
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by phimseto » May 14th, 2017, 4:05 pm

@aerothorn, it's not "holding back", but rather there needs to be time to test out the new content *along* with the fixes of existing problems. In a game with as much reactivity as Torment, the smallest changes and fixes get into Butterfly Effect territory. We need to make sure everything is playing nicely together.

As for announcing "when", that gets into thornier territory because so many different factors are involved making sure everything is good to go with a patch. I wish that I could be more definitive on the timeline, but as I have written elsewhere, all I can say is "sooner rather than later."

Aerothorn
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Aerothorn » May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm

Hello phim - thanks for the reply. I completely get about the content and reactivity. The part I don't get is why they have to be released together. There's a pretty long tradition in RPG games of fixing the serious problems first, and releasing bonus content second. Presumably before you can test it, all of the new content has to actually be created, which by definition happens after the game ships, right? And it seems like "fixing crashes" wouldn't cause any sort of butterfly effect because they have no narrative implications.

All that said, thank you for the info - I just wish it had been announced in a visible forum that no further bug-fixing would be done until the new content was released (didn't see that on KS updates, website, or Steam forums - I checked all 3!).

Again, I really like the game; it's just a very awkward first playthrough at this rate, though I get that there's always gonna be somebody in my position.

kilobug
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by kilobug » May 15th, 2017, 1:10 am

Aerothorn wrote:
May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm
The part I don't get is why they have to be released together.
To minimize QA/testing efforts. If they want to release a "technical patch" before the content patch, it means having two (or more) pipelines of changing code/testing running in parallel which requires more effort. They would have to first test the bug fixes without new content, and then test it again with new content. Also with consoles they have to pay MS/Sony on each patch.
Aerothorn wrote:
May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm
There's a pretty long tradition in RPG games of fixing the serious problems first
Well, they did one "technical" patch post-release, which fixed most of the serious issues that were in the game at release (which honestly weren't that many, at least on PC, compared to many RPGs), there are few "serious" issues left right now, so I can understand mixing the two to save efforts (or Effort).
Aerothorn wrote:
May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm
All that said, thank you for the info - I just wish it had been announced in a visible forum that no further bug-fixing would be done until the new content was released (didn't see that on KS updates, website, or Steam forums - I checked all 3!).
In my understanding, it's not as binary as a formal "we won't do any bug-fixing before new content", but more a "the backlog of bugs to fix is low enough it doesn't justify pushing a specific patch", that might change if new bugs are discovered and fixed (but sure as time goes, less and less bugs are found and we get closer to content patch being done, so less likely to happen).
Aerothorn wrote:
May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm
Again, I really like the game; it's just a very awkward first playthrough at this rate, though I get that there's always gonna be somebody in my position.
Yeah saddly with a game of such complexity, having 1 in 1000 playthrough that has a problem is not surprising - it's very unfortunate for the unlucky ones, I empathize with your situation, but I also understand inXile trying to save resources, especially since it seems the game didn't sale that well (unfortunately, since it's a great game), so it's nice of them to release new content and keep supporting the game anyway.

waltc
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by waltc » May 16th, 2017, 10:21 am

Aerothorn wrote:
May 14th, 2017, 5:19 pm
Hello phim - thanks for the reply. I completely get about the content and reactivity. The part I don't get is why they have to be released together. There's a pretty long tradition in RPG games of fixing the serious problems first, and releasing bonus content second. Presumably before you can test it, all of the new content has to actually be created, which by definition happens after the game ships, right? And it seems like "fixing crashes" wouldn't cause any sort of butterfly effect because they have no narrative implications.

All that said, thank you for the info - I just wish it had been announced in a visible forum that no further bug-fixing would be done until the new content was released (didn't see that on KS updates, website, or Steam forums - I checked all 3!).

Again, I really like the game; it's just a very awkward first playthrough at this rate, though I get that there's always gonna be somebody in my position.https://www.gog.com/forum/torment_tides_of_numenera
Actually, whenever expansions are released traditionally, in 99% of the cases they are accompanied by a bunch of bug fixes, new features, new textures, etc. and so on, at the same time. Pretty much every game expansion I have ever purchased follows that model. Also, what usually happens is that stand-alone bug-fix patches for the original game (not including the expansion material) are released at about the same time as the expansion or else a little later.


Valrog
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Valrog » May 16th, 2017, 12:23 pm

The most annoying bug is not fixed? Tol Maguur doesn't respawn if you kill her for enslaving Rhin, despite the options that clearly indicate that she would respawn. So the player either loses the Tidal Affinity storyline options in the largest section of the game or the player has to accept humiliating options (plead with the kidnapper and slaver of the player's own adopted daughter, allow the slaver to insult the player, offer Tybir as a prostitute and and even allow her to attack the player with a Tidal Surge).

I know for sure that the developers were aware of the bug, because not only did I post it in the Technical forum and file a bug report, but someone had already publicized the bug and Colin had even responded on that thread so he definitely had seen it.

:( I'm disappointed in you guys. What does our feedback matter?

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Colin McComb
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Colin McComb » May 16th, 2017, 1:49 pm

Hey, Valrog -

I have a terrifying secret to admit. Totally my bad. I was recalling the original design, rather than how it iterated, and never got a chance to come back to update. She's not supposed to respawn, and we should have edited her text to indicate that she would flee the area rather than stand around waiting for you.

I should add if you insulted Tol and killed her, she'd never have taught you Tidal Affinity anyway. Many apologies for the miscommunication. I should have made that clear back then.

Salmanasar
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Salmanasar » May 16th, 2017, 2:07 pm

btw. Colin, Torment is sometimes rough around the edges (being cut didnt help), but for the most time, I really enjoyed the game. I'm hoping that you'll take all feedback (even harsh one, whining can be sometimes more informative than blind admiration; for example, this topic viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17645 is great source of constructive feedback IMO), learn from it and stay in game industry for some time, because I'd love to see more of your work in the future. Currently your signature is one of the biggest highlight of the Torment CE for me :)
/end of admiration ;)

Valrog
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Re: Patch progress update?

Post by Valrog » May 19th, 2017, 2:53 pm

Colin McComb wrote:
May 16th, 2017, 1:49 pm
Hey, Valrog -

I have a terrifying secret to admit. Totally my bad. I was recalling the original design, rather than how it iterated, and never got a chance to come back to update. She's not supposed to respawn, and we should have edited her text to indicate that she would flee the area rather than stand around waiting for you.

I should add if you insulted Tol and killed her, she'd never have taught you Tidal Affinity anyway. Many apologies for the miscommunication. I should have made that clear back then.
Hello Colin,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and clear up what you meant. I appreciate it.

I must say that I honestly find it very hard to accept it as a feature, rather than a bug, though.

Even in the final iteration of the game, we are given 5 choices. We are clearly instructed to make the choices carefully, as some will result in her death and the others will have her return in a very angry way that you will have to deal with.

But, as you know, the choices don't matter.

Instead of editing the text to make her flee, I request you consider making what the current text says actually happen.

Why? Because, though it may be more work than editing the text to reconcile the two (or perhaps not significantly - I don't know how difficult it is to modify a trigger), consider the following:

1. How much time and effort your team lovingly put in to have all those Tidal Affinity options into the game. It really is a rare, if not unique game mechanic. This is a no-spoiler forum, so I won't state it here, but you know how important those Tidal Affinity options are to the roleplaying experience of the player. If you don't get to use Tidal Affinity in Area 1 of 4, then your next chance to use it will only be while/after leaving Area 3 of 4. That is a very major loss!

2. The distasteful and insulting experience that your player has to go through to obtain Tidal Affinity in Area 1 of 4. For many, including myself, it is simply not an option to plead with a person who has enslaved my daughter, let alone offer a friend as a prostitute to the same slaver on top of that, and allow myself to be insulted and attacked with a tidal surge afterwards. Can this really be accepted as an intentional design feature or is it a broken trigger that eliminates any other choices?

3. It is really very confusing currently, to the extent that I saved and reloaded so many times, and each time tried something different - like dying and exiting the labyrinth, looting and sparing the corpses, exiting the map and returning and even leaving the game on overnight to try to get the character to respawn. It was very, very tiring.

There are other bugs, but none have been so frustrating to me as this one, honestly.

Ideally, I'd expect some variance in the results of the different options. I'd reasonably expect her to respawn unless I had hacked up the corpse or had tossed it into the river. If I had carved a threat, I'd expect a "Don't kill me, I'll give you Tidal Affinity" without effort. If I had carved an insult instead of a threat, or had left the body alone, I'd reasonably expect to have to persuade or threaten to get it. And I'd reasonably expect lower amounts of effort would be required to persuade or threaten her if I had carved an insult rather than if I had left the corpse alone.

But if that's complicated even a simplified "Don't kill me, I'll give you Tidal Affinity" in every instance would be fine. Anything except the status quo - no Tidal Affinity in most of the game unless the player breaks RP and gets humiliated - would be tolerable.

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