Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

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Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Serjo » February 15th, 2017, 4:19 pm

From the stretch goal descriptions:
More Legacies: We increase the number of Legacies from 6 to 11, resulting in greater depth and more reactivity in gameplay and dialogue.

Given that Legacy is the primary theme of Torment, you can imagine that its effects will run deep. Your Legacy depends upon which of the five Tides you favor – as demonstrated through your actions and decisions within the game. At our target funding, we envisioned six Legacies: one for each Tide, and then a sixth for those who have no dominant Tide. Your Legacy (and the Tides) has a variety of impacts on both gameplay and on interactions in dialogue. For example, certain items will provide different abilities depending upon your Legacy, and your Legacy also affects what focus you master. Your Legacy might draw others to you, or make them wary of you. As your actions affect the Tides, you can choose to adopt a new Legacy and embrace your decisions or you can resist their pull – for a while, at least. Some NPCs and creatures will notice and react to the Tidal impact on your Legacy, with some reacting favorably and others… not so much.

Six Legacies yields a lot of potential for reactivity and choices and consequences. But at this Stretch Goal, we take the system much further. Instead of depending only upon one Tide, your Legacy will be based upon your strongest TWO. This increases the number of Legacies to 11 (ten possible pairs, plus an eleventh for when no two reign supreme). By almost doubling the number of Legacies, we unlock many more options for gameplay and opportunities for the world and its people to respond to your choices. Your Legacy can change throughout the game, and doubling the number of Legacies doesn’t double the gameplay time. But it does have a tremendous impact on how reactive and replayable Torment will be. That makes this game a deeper, richer experience and provides you with a host more options to consider and explore as you seek your answer to Torment’s core question. Naturally, this also means that we’ll be creating even more cool, unique items and effects that respond specifically to the paths you’ve chosen.
Enhanced Tide and Legacy System: Number of Legacies increased from 11 to 16:

While Adam, Colin, and I were developing the Tides concept over the past months, we envisioned the full system as including 16 Legacies (ten possible pairs, plus five for when one Tide dominates all others, plus one for when no Tides are dominant). We contemplated how we would handle and leverage this robust system to create an unprecedented degree of reactivity. Prior to the Kickstarter, we crushed our dreams as unrealistic and contented ourselves with 6, which we felt still left us with a more intricate system that most games have.

But at this Stretch Goal we are returning to our original, ideal vision for what the Tides and Legacies can become. Torment’s fourth pillar is Reactivity, Choice, and Real Consequences and while this pillar covers far more than just the Tides, the Tides and Legacy system are at the core of both Torment’s themes and its approach to gameplay. This means even more opportunities for reactivity based on your personal play style, and a deeper, richer experience for you.
http://tormentrpg.tumblr.com/theksstretchgoals

Evidently the Legacies were meant to be "at the core" of Torment's gameplay. That's how they were pitched, and that's how these stretch goals were sold.

But as far as I can tell, there has been no written reference to the Legacy system in several years, and there is no indication of the Legacy mechanics in the beta files. Has there been any further mention of these mechanics in video interviews, forums posts, etc.?

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by teenparty » February 16th, 2017, 3:26 am

This is extremely vague. It sounds like the reputation system in Pillars of Eternity.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » February 16th, 2017, 3:59 am

uhh, the tides are core to the gameplay, the legacies are the results of these tide combinations, actually i always understood legacies as endings *shrug*. Thats how i understood the pitch.

So basically as long as the highest tide (and the second highest tide) influence some things this is indeed in the game.

so tides are what you get when you do things, legacies are the results of these tides.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Spectrea » February 16th, 2017, 4:07 am

They have crushed our dreams as unrealistic to expect even base game concepts anymore and contented ourselves to 0.

Loved to know what happened during development. 4 years, much more money than they asked for, and at this point im wondering what hasn't been cut nevermind what has.

Wont get a reply on it now. If legacies still existed in the game it would be a simple "yes", havent even got that up to yet. So its obviously a negatory, and negative pr 2 weeks before release is bad.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Luckmann » February 16th, 2017, 5:20 am

Given that Factions and Foci have been cut, I would be incredibly surprised of the Legacy "system" affected anything other than the ending slides, which is a far cry from how the Legacies were originally pitched.

It is also unlikely that it would affect the CNPC:s in a meaningful way, since 3 out of 5 extra CNPC:s have been cut - having the CNPC:s react negatively to your actions, you'd run the risk of becoming CNPC-less, which is a big no-no in today's Console CRPG market.

In fact, I think it's bad form to refer to it as the Legacy System at this point, because there seems to be nothing systemic about it. It is simply your alignment, and it changes based on what you do, but it has no mechanical systems tied to it. The mechanical representation (legacies) of the core narrative aspect of the game (the tides) most likely only affects what ending you get and nothing else.

If even that, but it's impossible to tell. I think that's something the most enthusiastic data-miners are hesitant to dig into, since it'd mean looking at the structure of the verymost end-game.
Spectrea wrote:They have crushed our dreams as unrealistic to expect even base game concepts anymore and contented ourselves to 0.

Loved to know what happened during development. 4 years, much more money than they asked for, and at this point im wondering what hasn't been cut nevermind what has.

Wont get a reply on it now. If legacies still existed in the game it would be a simple "yes", havent even got that up to yet. So its obviously a negatory, and negative pr 2 weeks before release is bad.
Yeah, that's probably the most frustrating part - that it's not just the stretch-goals, but the fact that aspects of the core pitch has been compromised, from promises of a PC-focused game to the foci and the factions, nothing is coming out remotely close to what's been suggested even long after the initial crowdfunding was over. The fact that stretch-goals were ditched without comment and that fact kept secret from backers until less than a month from release actually pales in comparison to that, because it means that the very foundation of the initial pitch was basically fraudulent and insincere.

They needed 900 000 to fund the base game, and ended up getting almost five times that or more (counting backing other than Kickstarter, which raised just under 4 200 000), yet we somehow ended up with something that in many regards is less than what just the base game itself was supposed to be.
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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » February 16th, 2017, 6:49 am

at this one im pretty sure you guys are misunderstanding what this was always about ...

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Serjo » February 16th, 2017, 7:10 am

Lord of Riva wrote:at this one im pretty sure you guys are misunderstanding what this was always about ...
It's stated in the first quote in the OP:
Your Legacy (and the Tides) has a variety of impacts on both gameplay and on interactions in dialogue. For example, certain items will provide different abilities depending upon your Legacy, and your Legacy also affects what focus you master. Your Legacy might draw others to you, or make them wary of you.
There's no link between item abilities and your character's Legacy or the Tides in the beta, and your Focus is not affected by your Legacy or the TIdes either. Hence the question whether Legacies have been cut.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Gizmo » February 16th, 2017, 7:56 am

Serjo wrote:That's how they were pitched, and that's how these stretch goals were sold.
:?
Legacies are important [and of course should be kept, and expanded], but I cannot see how they were ever sold, unless I missed something on the backer page. Were these ever added to the backer tiers? What I mean is, that [afaik] no single backer ever gave them money to buy a stretch goal, and thus be owed the feature. Backers paid to receive the pitched game, and some bought the various additional tiers with extra physical and digital goods, and/or copies of the game.

It may be possible that some late-comers looked at the stretch goals and decided to buy the game because it had reached a given funding amount [stretch goals assumed as part of the package], but were the the tier packages they chose from visually/verbally updated to include any stretch goals as guaranteed goods? (That InXile would be on the hook to deliver?) As I understood it, at the time, the stretch goals were speculative, and something they would endeavor to add if the pitched game sold well enough to increase the budget. It did, and we all expect and want the achieved stretch goals, but I don't recall ever paying them money for one... And I would never adopt the position of being cheated for a speculative bonus not working out, and being cut from the pitched game.

Question: What if they were wrong, and discovered [after, and during development] that they needed more of the funding just to produce just the base pitched product? If they don't do that ~it's fraud; they HAVE to finish the base product... Would you (or anyone) honestly have it any other way? It appears to be triage; their own crisis event in the office, and the finger & toe features are getting clipped to save the hands & feet; (just as the hands and feet would have been clipped to save parts more vital. We [the backers] may not all agree on what features are seen as fingers or forearms, but do any of us have first hand experience with their development challenges? How can anyone here ~outside of the studio have an informed opinion?

As I've done above, we can only truly guess at it.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Serjo » February 16th, 2017, 8:21 am

Gizmo wrote:
Serjo wrote:That's how they were pitched, and that's how these stretch goals were sold.
:?

Legacies are important [and of course should be kept, and expanded], but I cannot see how they were ever sold, unless I missed something on the backer page. Were these ever added to the backer tiers? What I mean is, that [afaik] no single backer ever gave them money to buy a stretch goal, and thus be owed the feature. Backers paid to receive the pitched game...
Legacies were already a part of the base pitch. The two stretch goals quoted in the OP expanded them further, from 6 to 16.

Here is how the official vision document describes them (page 16):
Your Legacy influences the world around you. Weapons and relics may have different bonuses for characters with certain Legacies. Perceptive NPCs and ancient creatures will respond based on what kind of person the Tides show you to be. Some of them might react positively if you reveal yourself to be a thinker or an artist, while others might help you only if you are moved by passion and power.

Your Legacy will open new potential abilities. A strong Blue Tide might unlock the skill to identify the numenera more easily or use spell-like abilities more effectively. A strong Silver Tide might unlock the talent to create illusions or produce fear in your enemy. Some Legacies can change the very structure of your body, giving you superhuman powers: the ability to read the past in the minds of the dead, for instance, or a nearly supernatural affinity with weapons.
That was in 2013, and since then we've recieved no further information. I think it's appropriate to ask whether these mechanics will actually be in the game.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Firkraag » February 16th, 2017, 9:50 am

Legacies more or less is your reputation aggregators. Think Dispositions, but instead of responding to each of your scores, game responds to your dominant Tide or a combination of them (whether it's good or bad depends on implementation, compare Tyranny and Pillars of Eternity).

Tides are in a game, so logically there are the Legacies (You start with Idealist, five Tides in balance).

Next was the endings. The game is finished and (here I theorize), there is ending and consequently - endings, based on your final Tide score:Legacy. It's practically uncutable. I suggest not to get too tight your pitchforks and torches. I'd be very surprised if that part will be cut and there will be less, than six endings. I'll be the first to call that Devil's work, as it's more like shooting your own knees at this point. But 16 different, deep and meaningful endings were inplausible then and are implausible now, though, I'll be delighted to be proven wrong.

That said, the valid question is how profoundly it was implemented. It was promised to affect companions, factions NPCs... and Numenera (like unlocking different powers or at all based on your Legacy). My gut feeling, that it's your standard, run–of–the–mill rep system+endings.
Last edited by Firkraag on February 17th, 2017, 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Gizmo » February 16th, 2017, 9:53 am

Serjo wrote:Legacies were already a part of the base pitch. The two stretch goals quoted in the OP expanded them further, from 6 to 16.

Here is how the official vision document describes them (page 16):
Then they have a problem if the feature is cut; they have committed themselves to it. Image

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by anonymous6059 » February 17th, 2017, 4:12 am

Firkraag wrote: But 16 different, deep and meaningful endings were inplausible then and are implausible now, though, I'll be delighted to be proven wrong.
I love how easily you're able to buy into this "low-hanging fruit".
Inxile set the stretch goal themselves. It wasn't set by anyone else. They had the time (4 years) and the resources ($5,000,000) to make this game. Please, nothing about any of the stretch goals was "implausible". They just didn't manage their time or money very well and made the decision to simply not include them. Inxile went for the easiest possible solution because they were behind schedule. They didn't cut content because it was "implausible".

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Firkraag » February 17th, 2017, 5:09 am

Please, would you kindly not quote my posts in the future (or at least do it without my name in it)? I added you into my ignore list for a reason and don't plan to continue any communication with you in foreseeable future. upd: I don't seem to be properly equipped to handle a coherent conversation with you. No offense.
Last edited by Firkraag on February 17th, 2017, 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » February 17th, 2017, 10:00 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
Firkraag wrote: But 16 different, deep and meaningful endings were inplausible then and are implausible now, though, I'll be delighted to be proven wrong.
I love how easily you're able to buy into this "low-hanging fruit".
Inxile set the stretch goal themselves. It wasn't set by anyone else. They had the time (4 years) and the resources ($5,000,000) to make this game. Please, nothing about any of the stretch goals was "implausible". They just didn't manage their time or money very well and made the decision to simply not include them. Inxile went for the easiest possible solution because they were behind schedule. They didn't cut content because it was "implausible".
As Firkraag said, we can assume the legacies are in as they are the results of your tide scores at least im not alone in thinking that is what it is about.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by anonymous6059 » February 17th, 2017, 5:11 pm

Lord of Riva wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:
Firkraag wrote: But 16 different, deep and meaningful endings were inplausible then and are implausible now, though, I'll be delighted to be proven wrong.
I love how easily you're able to buy into this "low-hanging fruit".
Inxile set the stretch goal themselves. It wasn't set by anyone else. They had the time (4 years) and the resources ($5,000,000) to make this game. Please, nothing about any of the stretch goals was "implausible". They just didn't manage their time or money very well and made the decision to simply not include them. Inxile went for the easiest possible solution because they were behind schedule. They didn't cut content because it was "implausible".
As Firkraag said, we can assume the legacies are in as they are the results of your tide scores at least im not alone in thinking that is what it is about.
Sure, I'm pretty sure they are in the game as well. I'm just pointing out that it isn't some impossible feat to make 16 meaningful legacies in the course of 4 years. Sentiments exclaiming that these are unrealistic goals that we should of never expected is ludicrous. Inxile created these stretch goals. They had the ability and the funding to make them. If they are reduced in number it isn't because it was "implausible".

I have no idea how many will be in the game. My guess is 8 because Inxile seems to only implement half what they guarantee they'll do. The game must have at least six. One for each tide should exist and one for a balance of tides. I guess Inxile isn't going to give us a straightforward and detailed list of all the content they have cut and that is a real shame. All we can do is guess for now.

I just don't see any point in going around acting like we shouldn't of expected them have done what they promised to do. Whatever the real reasons are, it isn't because they couldn't do it. They either didn't because of misappropriation of funds or because they decided to cut the content in favor of other features. All we can hope for is that Inxile did the latter and made these changes for the betterment of the game. Something none of us will know until the 28th.

Acting as though the fruit is sour because it is out of reach isn't the answer.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » February 18th, 2017, 1:14 am

i hear you

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by sear » February 24th, 2017, 10:28 am

Legacies are in the game, and are different combinations of Dominant Tides as called out in some of our early Kickstarter updates. There are 16 legacies, and they feed into the game's endings. Additionally, there is a large amount of dialog in the game influenced by your Tides/Legacy. Some NPCs can respond differently to you based on your Tides, and some quests have certain options that are available only with specific Tides.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Lord of Riva » February 24th, 2017, 11:36 am

sear wrote:Legacies are in the game, and are different combinations of Dominant Tides as called out in some of our early Kickstarter updates. There are 16 legacies, and they feed into the game's endings. Additionally, there is a large amount of dialog in the game influenced by your Tides/Legacy. Some NPCs can respond differently to you based on your Tides, and some quests have certain options that are available only with specific Tides.

that clears it up, thanks Sear.

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Takkik » February 24th, 2017, 11:54 am

thx for the answer. Can we get one now for foci & factions so we can pass the final days of waiting in peace, please?

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Re: Has the Legacy system been cut from the game?

Post by Serjo » February 24th, 2017, 12:32 pm

sear wrote:Legacies are in the game, and are different combinations of Dominant Tides as called out in some of our early Kickstarter updates. There are 16 legacies, and they feed into the game's endings. Additionally, there is a large amount of dialog in the game influenced by your Tides/Legacy. Some NPCs can respond differently to you based on your Tides, and some quests have certain options that are available only with specific Tides.
Do they also unlock character ablities, item abilities and foci?

For example, certain items will provide different abilities depending upon your Legacy, and your Legacy also affects what focus you master.
Your Legacy will open new potential abilities. A strong Blue Tide might unlock the skill to identify the numenera more easily or use spell-like abilities more effectively. A strong Silver Tide might unlock the talent to create illusions or produce fear in your enemy. Some Legacies can change the very structure of your body, giving you superhuman powers: the ability to read the past in the minds of the dead, for instance, or a nearly supernatural affinity with weapons.

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