Shooting children ingame

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Grotesque
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Shooting children ingame

Post by Grotesque » December 17th, 2012, 10:42 pm

With the recent shootings at an elementary school, will that affect the player's liberty to shoot and kill any characters ingame, including children?
Does this game emphasises player freedom of choice or it will play it safe for image reasons and rating?
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RangerKeenan
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by RangerKeenan » December 18th, 2012, 11:10 am

Hi Grotesque,

It's kind of a moot issue for us. We don't have any kids in the design that you can shoot so we don't have to remove that feature.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Brother None » December 18th, 2012, 12:33 pm

This was a huge debate back in the early days of this forum, but as I argued back then, ratings are too much against you in different countries. It's invincible or no children, realistically.

So was this a ratings-related decision, Chris?
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by McDougle » December 18th, 2012, 12:45 pm

I dont have any trouble with kids not getting shot in my WL2(I actually hate it when media use the death of some virtual child to create drama), as long as that doesnt mean it will be a Wasteland without any kids at all. Now that would break immersion(like so many games already do).
>When I said “no” I felt like a kid who had to stay inside and practice the piano while all his friends got to go eat ice cream and have awesome sex on the moon.<Pat Rothfuss
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Grotesque
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Grotesque » December 18th, 2012, 1:57 pm

Wasteland forced you to kill Billy (a kid ingame) because he attacked you
In Fallout, also nobody forced you to attack children.

My point is that the games were not forcing you as a player to engage children to progress in the game; there were not side quests related to killing children either. The games that have all these should face drastic ratings.

"We don't have any kids in the design that you can shoot" to me this reads that there will be invincible children.
Am I right or there will no children at all in the game?
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by CaptainPatch » December 18th, 2012, 2:06 pm

Grotesque wrote:Wasteland forced you to kill Billy (a kid ingame) because he attacked you
In Fallout, also nobody forced you to attack children.
That's not actually true. When the party encountered Bobby after they killed Rex, the game threw the party into Combat Mode. HOWEVER, if the party simply Moved without attacking Bobby, it was possible to walk right adjacent to him without his attacking the party. It wasn't until after the _party attacked Bobby_ that he starts to counterattack. If NO ONE pulls the trigger, once the party has has Moved to beyond Combat range, the party returns out of Combat Mode and then continue their journey unmolested by Bobby.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Woolfe » December 18th, 2012, 2:15 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
Grotesque wrote:Wasteland forced you to kill Billy (a kid ingame) because he attacked you
In Fallout, also nobody forced you to attack children.
That's not actually true. When the party encountered Bobby after they killed Rex, the game threw the party into Combat Mode. HOWEVER, if the party simply Moved without attacking Bobby, it was possible to walk right adjacent to him without his attacking the party. It wasn't until after the _party attacked Bobby_ that he starts to counterattack. If NO ONE pulls the trigger, once the party has has Moved to beyond Combat range, the party returns out of Combat Mode and then continue their journey unmolested by Bobby.
Yep this is where I learnt you could actually move out of combat range and "flee" as such. Because I really didn't want to kill this dumb kid, who wouldn't understand that his dog was "not good".

Interestingly tho, I did get into a gunfight with the Robot Cops, in.... ah crap... memory fail... Was it Darwin? Altho I read somewhere that you didn't have to fight them either.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Temaperacl » December 18th, 2012, 2:33 pm

McDougle wrote:I dont have any trouble with kids not getting shot in my WL2(I actually hate it when media use the death of some virtual child to create drama), as long as that doesnt mean it will be a Wasteland without any kids at all. Now that would break immersion(like so many games already do).
But this is where I, at least, would have a problem - if there are kids in WL2, I would want them to be treated like anybody else - that is, attackable. It is far easier for me to ignore something that isn't there (the fact that there are no kids) than to be unable to enter combat when kids are around or, even worse, realize that I can't target a kid or have a grenade blow up at their feet with no effect (same with the whole "plot critical NPC" that you can't kill or that triggers an automatic game-end if you do.).

I personally prefer to have them there and be attackable, but since that won't happen (See the discussion Brother None mentioned), it is best for them to not be there at all. That is what I hope DarkTwinkie meant - the design didn't have any need for kids to be there, so it wasn't an issue.

Actually, I don't mind if they (children and NPCs) are there and not-attackable as long as they are abstracted (Think many of the NPCs in the Gold box games, or in the original the contact when you radioed in or stand-alone shops - by being represented differently, they didn't bring up that same disconnect. If represented by an on-map character, though..

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A Wasteland without children?

Post by McDougle » December 19th, 2012, 12:41 pm

In one thread you mentioned that the player wouldnt come into a situation in which he could "gun down" a child.

In another thread there was an example about gunning down an entire city(which I thought wouldnt be possible after the first example)...

will this be a Wasteland without children?

Even the moral dilemmas post mentioned a decision that included a child(WL1 did include them, too), so this wouldnt just be an immersion breaker, but also disclude many possible scenarios and thus diverse missions.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Jack Dandy » December 20th, 2012, 3:37 pm

So, I'm guessing there won't be any kids in WL2?

Kind of a shame. But after that shit went down in Newtown, I won't blame you.

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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Gizmo » December 21st, 2012, 2:22 pm

I can understand censoring one's ideas to deliberately allow for a broader venue (of willing merchants); or simply not planning any offensive content, but I don't at all approve of self censoring for the sake of appeasing some busybody; be they a person, a group, or a country. Image

Is Wasteland 2 going to be sold in Walmart? (and have Walmart's corporate morality enforced upon it?)
I recall buying a retail copy of 'Shadow Warrior' in Walmart ~a 'special edition' ; an expurgated edition, I later found out... I'm not kidding. 3DRealms had it in the store, but [thankfully] they offered a free repair patch on their server, that corrected the damage done to that version of the game. It's funny... you can buy the Robocop DVD in Walmart; Robocop was X-rated 11 times before they shaved just enough out of it for an R rating... and yet they'd censor 'Shadow Warrior'. Image
Temaperacl wrote:
McDougle wrote:I dont have any trouble with kids not getting shot in my WL2(I actually hate it when media use the death of some virtual child to create drama), as long as that doesnt mean it will be a Wasteland without any kids at all. Now that would break immersion(like so many games already do).
But this is where I, at least, would have a problem - if there are kids in WL2, I would want them to be treated like anybody else - that is, attackable.
I have same opinion here. We are talking about little drawings; and letting another person's interpretation of them (or country's) dictate what we ourselves are allowed to imagine and/or illustrate. It's absurd. It's definitely a kind of thought police, and though it's rather mundane now, it eventually leads to things like Batman not being able to punch thugs, but must instead trip them with chairs, gadgets or banana peels; and then to films like 'Schindler's List' not even being possible to make (at some point) ~for mentioning the events at all.

Go look at the Butcher's lair in Diablo... Is there anything like that in Diablo 3? (Serious question; I haven't played Diablo 3 yet). The Butcher's lair is filled with nude dismembered men and women ~some stabbed through on pikes... and it's exactly what you'd expect to find in a demon Butcher's lair... but I doubt you would see that in a recent title ~a product of our evolving nanny-state.

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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by DethRaid » December 23rd, 2012, 9:00 pm

I'd just like to say that it's incredibly immersion-breaking when I try to attack a child only to find out that said child is invincible. I was playing Skyrim one day, breaking into people's houses and stealing stuff, when I found that one house had a child in it. I tried to kill the child, killing all witnesses and such, only to find that he was invincible. That just makes no sense in the game world. Conversely, there were very few children in Fallout 3. Not seeing the children really didn't hurt that game, imo. As has been stated above, I'd much rather have no children than invincible children.

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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by CaptainPatch » December 23rd, 2012, 11:09 pm

DethRaid wrote: I was playing Skyrim one day, breaking into people's houses and stealing stuff, when I found that one house had a child in it. I tried to kill the child, killing all witnesses and such, only to find that he was invincible. That just makes no sense in the game world.
I tried to assassinate the Silver-Blood family in Markarth; guess who else is invulnerable. Just as bad, I got into a running fight with the Markarth guards, of which there are only 20-30, tops. 50+ dead guards later, they were _still_ throwing themselves onto my blade. Until the most recent patch, the officers at the Imperial/Stormcloak hold bases were also invulnerable. ["Invulnerable" isn't precisely correct. You could knock them to their knees, but you could never actually finish them off.]

I don't know if these situations are because the devs never thought that the situation would come up, or because they needed those particular NPCs for future plot lines. Either way, unkillable NPCs or an infinite supply of suicidal human wave attackers does seriously kill the immersion. Conversely, doing things like killing children casually and without remorse SHOULD have some kind of dire consequences. In the case of Skyrim, since they do have active gods that interact with humans, I would think it was appropriate if some deity decided to curse your PC with an aggressively debilitating disease until such time as he had done the appropriate penance and/or made restitution to the people that the deity was protecting. I don't quite know what the appropriate consequences in a post-Apocalyptic setting would be though. Most likely your PC's portrait on widely distributed "WANTED: Dead (preferred) or Alive" posters.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by McDougle » December 24th, 2012, 6:08 am

I just hate it that current day politics(that will be a year old when the game hits the shelves) seem to make WL2 a shallower than possible, censored experience.
I dont want dead children in my game, but to have none is also bull.

So many character concepts, stories and social insights into different postapoc societies would go to waste.
>When I said “no” I felt like a kid who had to stay inside and practice the piano while all his friends got to go eat ice cream and have awesome sex on the moon.<Pat Rothfuss
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by TΛPETRVE » December 24th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Politics have come a far way in the last 15 years. Looking back at Jagged Alliance 2 back in 1998, there were children a-plenty in the game, and they were neither invulnerable, nor were they kept out of hazardous situations. There even was a sweatshop full of child labourers, which you could liberate, ignore, or just hose down with bullets - including the children - if you felt so inclined. Of course, you would have to bear the consequences, and rightfully so. Child murderers have no friends.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Drool » December 24th, 2012, 8:01 pm

McDougle wrote:I just hate it that current day politics(that will be a year old when the game hits the shelves) seem to make WL2 a shallower than possible, censored experience.
Feh.

It's not Kid Killer 5000, so I don't see how disallowing child-murder as making it "shallower". The perfect is the enemy of the good, and I'd rather they just side-step this issue than dying on the hill of Everything Must Be Allowed.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Gizmo » December 24th, 2012, 8:23 pm

Drool wrote:
McDougle wrote:I just hate it that current day politics(that will be a year old when the game hits the shelves) seem to make WL2 a shallower than possible, censored experience.
Feh.

It's not Kid Killer 5000, so I don't see how disallowing child-murder as making it "shallower". The perfect is the enemy of the good, and I'd rather they just side-step this issue than dying on the hill of Everything Must Be Allowed.
They already said that they weren't/ and never were. I don't think it was ever an issue.

** But plenty of less complex games had no qualms about it; and were made more believable for it.

What I'd hope won't happen is what has happened to me in a few games... Invulnerable children that attack you.
I still recall that happening a few times in Bad Day:LA.

IIRC one of the Ultima series of games (not sure which..... or even that it was Ultima :oops: )... One of them did not allow you to target children ~yet children were effected by splash damage; so that encouraged (and made irresistible) targeting them indirectly because it was forbidden ~when they probably wouldn't have cared otherwise.

This is a very mod friendly game they are planning... It won't be me, but there will be several mods that enable this.

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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Drool » December 24th, 2012, 9:08 pm

I know. I was responding to the complaint. Hell, I'm surprised this was even brought up, and I can't imagine that anyone honestly expected it.

And, McDougle, it's hardly "present day politics". Many countries have restricted this kind of thing in games for years. Decades. I seem to recall Germany having the children blanked out in Fallout, and that was 1997.
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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by Gizmo » December 24th, 2012, 9:59 pm

Drool wrote:I know. I was responding to the complaint. Hell, I'm surprised this was even brought up, and I can't imagine that anyone honestly expected it.

And, McDougle, it's hardly "present day politics". Many countries have restricted this kind of thing in games for years. Decades. I seem to recall Germany having the children blanked out in Fallout, and that was 1997.
As I understand it, that was a late demand that threatened Interplay's sales overseas; they simply erased the child sprites rather than alter the game... They are still in there just invisible; same for FO2.

** The GoG versions are the censored versions.

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Re: Shooting children ingame

Post by under_dog » December 25th, 2012, 2:58 am

yeah, and even back in these old days, Germany had Duke Nukem 3D without blood and without women (strippers, captured etc..), and depending on the distributions methods, even here in France, we sometimes had batch of heavily edited titles.(shadow warrior comes to mind, with its infamous green blood..)
It has since evolved a bit, but there is still a few country where the almighty powers of the rating boards are just not funny (:wink: Australia)

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