Will Combat be Action Point based?

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b0rsuk
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by b0rsuk » December 25th, 2012, 10:05 am

Drool wrote: As mentioned by another poster, there's nothing wrong with weapon obsolescence, and frankly, I don't understand the resistance to it.
Hmm, let's see:
Image

Do you see the "Handgun" skill ? It's an alternative to skills: Shotgun, Rifle, Sniper Rifle, SMG, Energy weapons. An alternative for spending skill points. It doesn't matter if skills are trained by use, like in Wasteland 2, or (quite likely) by assigning points at level up. Both ways have multiple skills competing for your attention, and you will most likely train one skill at the cost of the other.

In vast majority of cases, skills in RPG systems have the same training cost. You choose where to spend those points, or (if learned by use), spend more time with preferred weapon. If handguns are designed to be weaker than other weapon categories, no player who prioritizes winning will pick them. It will be a false choice, a trap for ignorant players. Dead code.
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Realism-wise, let me start by saying I know Wasteland 2 takes place in alternate 80's. SMGs have been partially made obsolete by assault rifles, which have better power in similar-sized package. Wikipedia lists following niches for the usage of SMGs and handguns:
- vehicle crews
- civilans and weaker people ("God created men, but Colt made them equal")
- indoor combat

As for indoor combat, shotguns, handguns, and smgs are still popular among the police and anti-terrorists for a few reasons:
- reduced risk of overpenetration. It turns out more power is not always better. You don't want to hurt bystanders, hostages, or get hit by a ricochet from your own weapon. Shotgun's low range is considered a benefit.
- smaller size really is an advantage in tight spaces
- the main advantage of shotgun is the ease to hit, not the power. Power-wise it's okay and a popular choice for door breaching, but individual pellets have penetration capabilities of a pistol round.
- they work better with supressors. Silencers are used by special forces not to be stealthy, but mostly to avoid going deaf. Silencers are nowhere as effective as in movies, unless you use special sub-sonic rounds which obviously fly a lot slower. Best suppressors reduce a handgun shot from 160 dB to 117 dB.

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by reiniat » December 25th, 2012, 2:39 pm

dorkboy wrote: a game system that can handle huge amounts of simultaneous combatants will probably have memorable battles where there are huge amounts of simultaneous combatants. whether or not a particular fight is memorable (in a good way, i mean) will depend on a lot of factors, obviously, where the sheer amount of enemies is only one of them.
He just made a point, it not just about have a fight with 100 dudes, but how do you present it, especially since Wasteland 2 will have graphs, original Wasteland big battles could only be imagined as from the events and info the player received from screen and the player was the one who added the epicness with his imagination.
And i think that represent a battle of 100 against a simple Ranger squad in Wasteland 2 will look rather weird, maybe if there is 50 critters fighting other 50 critters on screen and you are in the middle of the battle figuring youre way to get out in one piece, THAT would be epic.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by kira » December 25th, 2012, 5:52 pm

DarkTwinkie wrote:Hi Lucius,

Combat will be action point based. There are no defined rounds for "rangers turn" and "enemies turn". Instead it is based on the speed attribute of each party member. Characters with higher speed attributes will get more turns than those with lower speed attributes. Put more points into speed if you'd like to attack more in any given combat encounter.
I know a forum rule is no "+1 posts" but I just wanted to say I really like how you guys are going to handle turns and wanted to make sure you knew people liked it.

With that said I support how you guys are handling turns and don't want you to change it.

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Drool » December 25th, 2012, 8:02 pm

b0rsuk wrote:If handguns are designed to be weaker than other weapon categories, no player who prioritizes winning will pick them.
Unless that's all you have to start with.

I continue to be amazed at people who seem to think it's good game design to have a starting weapon be perfectly viable for the entire game. "Mason Cannon? Fuck that noise, I got a Glock!"
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by reiniat » December 25th, 2012, 9:54 pm

Drool wrote:
b0rsuk wrote:If handguns are designed to be weaker than other weapon categories, no player who prioritizes winning will pick them.
Unless that's all you have to start with.
I continue to be amazed at people who seem to think it's good game design to have a starting weapon be perfectly viable for the entire game. "Mason Cannon? Fuck that noise, I got a Glock!"
Of course, our first 9mm Glock should be useless after level 2... but there should be high-end handguns that could keep the Handgun skill useful towards the end of the game, be imaginative, maybe a Desert Eagle that fires cal.50 with a magnetic acceleration upgrade (for overpenetration ;) or should that fall into the Energy Weapons domains?)
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Drool » December 25th, 2012, 10:08 pm

But with increase-through-use skills, you aren't punished if a skill becomes obsolete. You spend a small investment to jump-start the skill and then let it grow on its own. Likewise, you spend a little to jump-start the advanced skill and let it grow on its own. As opposed to Fallout where you could spend 100 points jacking up your small arms skill only to find you should have spent those 100 points on energy weapons.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by GodComplex » December 25th, 2012, 11:20 pm

Drool wrote:
b0rsuk wrote:If handguns are designed to be weaker than other weapon categories, no player who prioritizes winning will pick them.
Unless that's all you have to start with.

I continue to be amazed at people who seem to think it's good game design to have a starting weapon be perfectly viable for the entire game. "Mason Cannon? Fuck that noise, I got a Glock!"
Well Glocks do have the occasional explosion damage. Maybe you could alt fire it as a grenade?
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Ronin73 » December 25th, 2012, 11:32 pm

Drool wrote:
b0rsuk wrote:If handguns are designed to be weaker than other weapon categories, no player who prioritizes winning will pick them.
Unless that's all you have to start with.

I continue to be amazed at people who seem to think it's good game design to have a starting weapon be perfectly viable for the entire game. "Mason Cannon? Fuck that noise, I got a Glock!"
Yeah, I kinda wish inXile answered my question on starting equipment. I don't think it would be unreasonable to be able to pick a rifle or shotgun, but of course I'd be more than happy to roll with pistols, if that is all that is on offer.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by undecaf » December 26th, 2012, 3:45 am

Drool wrote:But with increase-through-use skills, you aren't punished if a skill becomes obsolete.
If a skill is to become obsolete and you need to abandon it for another skill relatively early on in order to cope with the game, why bother having it as a separate and specific skill at all? It's a rather monotonous and obvious way of progressing weapons.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Lirpakkaa » December 26th, 2012, 6:34 am

Firing with an assault rifle or SMG isn't that different from each other, I'd like to see a common skill for shooting, and not a specific one for each gun. Maybe have specialization skills for different firearm types on top of that, as long as you're not completely starting over each time you change your gun.

As for handguns, well they're weak and there's no point in trying to change that - but they are small, so you can more easily do things other than shooting while wielding one - climbing, opening doors, throwing grenades... And of course there should be more powerful handguns too, energy pistol etc. just don't make them as powerful at shooting as energy rifles.

But this has little to do with APs though...

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Lucius » December 26th, 2012, 6:40 am

undecaf wrote:If a skill is to become obsolete and you need to abandon it for another skill relatively early on in order to cope with the game, why bother having it as a separate and specific skill at all? It's a rather monotonous and obvious way of progressing weapons.
I'm not sure why this subject has become such a big deal. Wasteland had weapon skills become obsolete and it wasn't game breaking at all. So if handguns are useless at the end of the game it will be like it's predecessor. What's the big deal?

If you really want to keep handguns viable then make pistols and SMGs able to be dual wielded later in the game. Suck on that.

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Lirpakkaa » December 26th, 2012, 7:37 am

I'd like to see them changing the bad stuff from the original, the unbalanced skill system for example.

Instead, they're changing the good stuff - phase based combat into action points. : /

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by undecaf » December 26th, 2012, 7:41 am

Lucius wrote:...it will be like it's predecessor. What's the big deal?
I don't hold Wasteland as a game that needed no improvements or refinements.

I see no gain in having skills A, B and C as separate entities (that you can choose from the beginning) but work as continuations of each other. It merely bloats the skill list for no conceivable reason.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Zeful » December 26th, 2012, 10:00 pm

Lucius wrote:I'm not sure why this subject has become such a big deal. Wasteland had weapon skills become obsolete and it wasn't game breaking at all. So if handguns are useless at the end of the game it will be like it's predecessor. What's the big deal?

If you really want to keep handguns viable then make pistols and SMGs able to be dual wielded later in the game. Suck on that.
Just because something didn't break the game doesn't mean it isn't broken design. You are conflating one argument to be something else entirely that no one is arguing, and thus invalidate all of your attempts to refute them.

If a skill only exists for a small portion of time in the beginning of the game, and then must be abandoned to progress forward, an unintuitive element of system mastery has been added to the game, and anyone that goes into the game believing that it won't deceive them with bad design choices will get frustrated and rightfully call the game out on it. Because this element provides no positive elements to the game, the game is not deeper for it's inclusion, the game is not more believable a world, and it doesn't provide any better gameplay. In fact, considering that one option has become entirely spurious in it's existence, that is one less valid option, meaning that the game actually becomes less deep as a result of a poor design decision that only exists for some bad attempt at what, realism?

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by b0rsuk » December 27th, 2012, 5:51 am

Lucius wrote: I'm not sure why this subject has become such a big deal. Wasteland had weapon skills become obsolete and it wasn't game breaking at all. So if handguns are useless at the end of the game it will be like it's predecessor. What's the big deal?

If you really want to keep handguns viable then make pistols and SMGs able to be dual wielded later in the game. Suck on that.
By your logic, a worm in an apple is not reallly apple-breaking. You can simply eat around the worm, or ignore it. Other people also have apples with worms in them, so what's the big deal ?

If a worm in an apple really bothers you, you can dual-wield apples with worms.

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by reiniat » December 27th, 2012, 8:42 pm

undecaf wrote:
Drool wrote:But with increase-through-use skills, you aren't punished if a skill becomes obsolete.
If a skill is to become obsolete and you need to abandon it for another skill relatively early on in order to cope with the game, why bother having it as a separate and specific skill at all? It's a rather monotonous and obvious way of progressing weapons.
EXACTLY combat skills are, or should, be designed as the non combat skills; to provide you with different ways to achieve an objective, Handguns should be as much as useful in comparation to Energy Weapons as Leadership should be as much as useful as Doctor towards the end of the game, DEPENDING on the Rangers you had created, this is by no means to make those skills interchangeable, but if you make one of them plain better then there is no point in invest time in the others unless the game oblies you to use them, wich is just wrong.
Drool wrote:But with increase-through-use skills, you aren't punished if a skill becomes obsolete. You spend a small investment to jump-start the skill and then let it grow on its own. Likewise, you spend a little to jump-start the advanced skill and let it grow on its own. As opposed to Fallout where you could spend 100 points jacking up your small arms skill only to find you should have spent those 100 points on energy weapons.
YES YOU DO, because everytime youre levelling a soon to be useless skill youre not levelling a future useful skill, and when you start to use it you will suck at it, so in your reality what is better, to be an expert with handguns or to use EW just because they must be better even if you dont know how to use them?
Should a sniper shot a tank with a rocket launcher only because its more powerful even if he doesnt know how to shoot it, or should he use an antimaterial rifle because that is the kind of guns he specialized?
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Lucius » December 27th, 2012, 9:26 pm

undecaf wrote:
Lucius wrote:...it will be like it's predecessor. What's the big deal?
I don't hold Wasteland as a game that needed no improvements or refinements.
Of course not. But the fact pistols became obsolete was in NO way a problem. The player really wasn't affected by that at all. It is not an area that needs improvement, because it works as is. This doesn't need fixed.
Zeful wrote:If a skill only exists for a small portion of time in the beginning of the game, and then must be abandoned to progress forward, an unintuitive element of system mastery has been added to the game, and anyone that goes into the game believing that it won't deceive them with bad design choices will get frustrated and rightfully call the game out on it.
Did this happen to you or anyone you knew? What percent of Wasteland players had an issue with pistols become obsolete and were troubled with mastering that system? It was obvious to everyone I knew...
Because this element provides no positive elements to the game, the game is not deeper for it's inclusion, the game is not more believable a world, and it doesn't provide any better gameplay. In fact, considering that one option has become entirely spurious in it's existence, that is one less valid option, meaning that the game actually becomes less deep as a result of a poor design decision that only exists for some bad attempt at what, realism?
In real life, an assault rifle is more powerful than a handgun...ANY handgun, in most situations. How is that a bad attempt at realism. Sounds pretty right to me. How does it not to you? Regarding poor design decision? That's very much an opinion. In MY opinion having handguns useful to end game is fucking retarded game mechanics. Who on earth would think that is a good idea??? Especially in a world where there is such superior technology. Of course a .50 caliber handgun should be able to rape someone walking around in a suit of Power Armor - a walking tank. That makes sense. :roll:

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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Drool » December 27th, 2012, 10:09 pm

reiniat wrote:YES YOU DO, because everytime youre levelling a soon to be useless skill youre not levelling a future useful skill, and when you start to use it you will suck at it, so in your reality what is better, to be an expert with handguns or to use EW just because they must be better even if you dont know how to use them?
They're useful while you're using them. But you are sinking, literally, hundreds of valuable points in something ultimately useless like you did in Fallout. Fallout gave you the choice of sinking tons of valuable points only to regret it later, or to level something that you couldn't use until the half-way point.

For three points, you could have level 2 Pistol, and you wouldn't need to spend a single point there ever again. Coincidentally, that was the cost of level 1 Energy Weapon, which you couldn't even learn until you were in an area that dropped said energy weapons. But by all means, lets make every gun identical so people don't have any reason to complain about skills not being useful for the entire game. Hell, let's just only have pistols. Wouldn't want the players to make choices, now would we?
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Ronin73 » December 27th, 2012, 10:27 pm

I thought I read somewhere that ammunition would be scarce? if that is the case using, say a handgun may be needed out of necessity rather than choice.

This isn't a world where you necessarily get to pick and choose optimal skills and weapons, so arguing against using a seemingly inferior skill or weapon, based on realism seems a little pointless to me.
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Re: Will Combat be Action Point based?

Post by Mandemon » December 28th, 2012, 12:49 am

Regarding weapons... I agree that sooner or later a weapon should become obsolete. It makes no sense that my pathetic 9mm Handgun is consistently capable of killing enemies that wear enough weapons and armor to conquer a small nation.

Or even worse, that 9mm has the same killing power as weapon that fires superheated plasma. Only way pistol could remain viable is that it's "non-standard" or custom(Ala Hunting-Rifle-Turned-Pistol in Fallout)

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