Stop Dicking Around Devs

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cunningandvalor
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Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by cunningandvalor » April 26th, 2014, 8:13 pm

I wish someone would tell Brother None and Brian Fargo to stop screwing around and work on the game instead of promoting other games. I am all about them taking their time to perfect the game but sometimes I wonder if they're just dicking around in their headquarters looking at other games (shout outs). Newsflash guys: Kickstarter backers want their game and we're probably not going to get our swag until 2015. I mean, considering the amount of 'new' content in the last update, I'm wondering if you guys are in a situation where you are 'doing fan service' or if it's 'we have a job that's paying us money because of early access and extra money and we want to keep people employed for as long as possible.'

I backed on Kickstarter. I am not some new dude.

Can you guys give us an estimate or should we start posting reviews on Kickstarter about how how we don't get enough information and will probably never get our game?

Really - Titan Canyon was awesome, but are you telling me between that and Darwin Village, that's all you guys can do in two months?

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Crosmando » April 26th, 2014, 8:31 pm

Most of the team is probably working on the LA part of the game, not Arizona.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by cunningandvalor » April 26th, 2014, 8:31 pm

Crosmando wrote:Most of the team is probably working on the LA part of the game, not Arizona.
Prove it or shut up. Also, I said nothing about Arizona. I am talking about actual product. Learn the difference.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Crosmando » April 26th, 2014, 8:40 pm

cunningandvalor wrote:
Crosmando wrote:Most of the team is probably working on the LA part of the game, not Arizona.
Prove it or shut up.
How can I prove something going on behind closed doors? Given that the LA part of the game will be at least half of WL2, it just makes sense that where most of the work is going.

The game has been changing immensely since the first beta build, I am probably the last person to say it (given how much I criticized the whole concept of open beta/Early Access because of the potential negative impacts) but I am willing to admit I was wrong and that the open-beta process has resulted in making WL2 way better. Compare the first build of the beta to now and you'll see how hugely it has changed for the better.

As for the other stuff, I don't really understand what you're criticizing, is it that they promote each build of the beta? I think we're all antsy for the game to just finally come out, I can understand that, but also I do want them to appropriately polish the game before releasing it. It shouldn't be too long now.

EDIT: The reason they took longer is because the fans playing the beta made suggestions to improve the game, some of which they agreed with and implemented.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by cunningandvalor » April 26th, 2014, 8:47 pm

Crosmando wrote:
cunningandvalor wrote:
Crosmando wrote:Most of the team is probably working on the LA part of the game, not Arizona.
Prove it or shut up.
How can I prove something going on behind closed doors? Given that the LA part of the game will be at least half of WL2, it just makes sense that where most of the work is going.

The game has been changing immensely since the first beta build, I am probably the last person to say it (given how much I criticized the whole concept of open beta/Early Access because of the potential negative impacts) but I am willing to admit I was wrong and that the open-beta process has resulted in making WL2 way better. Compare the first build of the beta to now and you'll see how hugely it has changed for the better.

As for the other stuff, I don't really understand what you're criticizing, is it that they promote each build of the beta? I think we're all antsy for the game to just finally come out, I can understand that, but also I do want them to appropriately polish the game before releasing it. It shouldn't be too long now.

EDIT: The reason they took longer is because the fans playing the beta made suggestions to improve the game, some of which they agreed with and implemented.
Nah, I'm with you buddy. Check my join date. I'm an original backer. I've been waiting for this shit for most of my adult life. I am curious as to why it takes them so long to do so little. Have you checked the patch notes? They are increasingly less-developmental. I think those guys are sitting in their chairs, taking their time, having some fun, and doing as little as possible. Why wouldn't they? They have all the money in the world coming from early-access users.

Were you a Kickstarter backer? Because I don't think that I will get my physical copy of the game or any of the other swag that I have already paid for until June 2015. That is an accurate estimate based on the amount of time that has passed between their original goals and now. If you'd like me to provide the math, I would be happy to, but until someone with a green or red name answers my honest and sincere question - I hope you kindly eff off.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Drool » April 26th, 2014, 8:54 pm

cunningandvalor wrote:I wish someone would tell Brother None and Brian Fargo to stop screwing around and work on the game instead of promoting other games.
Fargo is a producer and publisher. Brother None is the line producer. They aren't the programmers or artists.
Really - Titan Canyon was awesome, but are you telling me between that and Darwin Village, that's all you guys can do in two months?
Missed that huge list of bug fixes and balance tweaks, I take it.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Arcanix » April 27th, 2014, 1:33 am

cunningandvalor wrote:
Crosmando wrote:Most of the team is probably working on the LA part of the game, not Arizona.
Prove it or shut up. Also, I said nothing about Arizona. I am talking about actual product. Learn the difference.
There is a Brother None quote of this somewhere. I will try to dig it up.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Crosmando » April 27th, 2014, 1:40 am

It's not worth arguing about. The game will be finished when it's finished.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Tets » April 27th, 2014, 1:57 am

so the argument is, they dont really work on the game. i dont see how this is true. In every build you can see obvious changes, there is clearly a progression. And there are many changes which arent obvious. Plus there are long release notes, which shows many of the changes made.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Arcanix » April 27th, 2014, 2:08 am

Couldnt find it.

In essence, the writers are at Tides of Numenera and the coders work on the LA side of the game. While they get feedback on the Arizona side and polish that. (Thats why they have these Ranger Corner threads). Random encounters and fleshing content out in general.

If the devs could give cunningandvalor an answer on this it would be great. Im sure there are more backers thinking the same.
Drool wrote:
cunningandvalor wrote:I hope that at the end of this they offer Kickstarter backers the option to vote for which members of Ranger Team Alpha were the worst, because Drool's opinions are always terrible and unhelpful.
You probably wouldn't be the only one to feel this way. I'm not sure what this would accomplish, though.
Creative freedom and peace on these boards.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Tets » April 27th, 2014, 2:32 am

there are over 70.000 backers. a few people complaining about the game isnt released yet doesnt make more than a few percent of the people, and you can never make all people happy. the most backers simply wait until the game is done. they might sometimes look into the updates, if the game is released yet, if it made some progress, but thats all. Todays average gamer is nearly 30 years old, people have other things to do than complain about a game not finished yet. They normally know from experience that game production time cant be calculated exactly. They know from experience, to better wait for a good game, instead of getting a bad game early.

In the end, after a few months or even years, nobody cares if a game got released a few months earlier or later, what counts is the quality of the final product. whats selling is the final product. whats judged is the final product. After a few months nobody cares anymore for the critique, that the game wasnt released a few months earlier.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Crosmando » April 27th, 2014, 3:10 am

Supposedly the game will be feature/content "locked" by the end of May, from then it'll just be bugfixing.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Tets » April 27th, 2014, 4:06 am

yes, but they also say
We know better than to give an exact date at this point because in addition to pushing the game in the ways we’d planned, we’re going to continue to incorporate player comments that make sense for us to address. But we are in the final stretch, and are thankful our backers have consistently agreed we should take the time we need. Our current three month plan will create a significantly better game as we are in an important development phase with each week taking huge steps to improve the game. As we progress through this plan we'll of course keep posting updates to let all our backers know how the game's progressing. But do be aware the end of this three month plan does not represent the finish line, at that point there will still be work to do before we can release the game. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/in ... sts/753216

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Arcanix » April 27th, 2014, 5:48 am

Crosmando wrote:Supposedly the game will be feature/content "locked" by the end of May, from then it'll just be bugfixing.
Alright, better flesh out the feature/content suggestions then. Even if it doesnt make the game they atleast have it for a sequel or expansion.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Brother None » April 27th, 2014, 2:02 pm

I'm not entirely sure I understand what the question are here?

No, obviously the beta content is not the only content we're working on. What you see reflected in the patch notes is an extract from our internal build and fix notes, the ones that are applicable purely to the beta, it takes John hours even to just extract that as internal notes go on much longer. And even the patch notes we put out are quite sizable. Also I think there's a misunderstanding here, cunningandvalor, if you think Silo/Darwin are "newly created" areas, all areas in the game already exist at this stage, when we put them into the beta is determined by level of polish and testing.

Is the question do we have a new estimate? We do not. If we did we would've announced it. We outlined our 3-month schedule some months ago though, as people have pointed out, so people should have a notion of our current stage and recent progress. But we have no intention to hang out in Early Access, just because we're not at a stage where things are solidified enough to talk publicly about schedules doesn't mean we're twiddling our thumbs. But we do want to make it the best game it can be, yes.

So what actually brought this topic about? Me and Brian screwing around? Well for one thing I'd say that we do in fact have free time and what we do in that free time is up to us, including looking at other games and deciding to give them shout outs. I don't think you'd need to worry about how many hours we put in for inXile, it is well over 40 a week for me easily, though it is spread over Torment and WL2. And the 10 seconds it takes out of our time to post a quick shoutout to Twitter or link on Facebook is not going to derail development, I promise. It just took way more time to type this reply than it takes to do the shoutouts we do.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by cunningandvalor » April 28th, 2014, 12:32 am

Brother None wrote:I'm not entirely sure I understand what the question are here?

No, obviously the beta content is not the only content we're working on. What you see reflected in the patch notes is an extract from our internal build and fix notes, the ones that are applicable purely to the beta, it takes John hours even to just extract that as internal notes go on much longer. And even the patch notes we put out are quite sizable. Also I think there's a misunderstanding here, cunningandvalor, if you think Silo/Darwin are "newly created" areas, all areas in the game already exist at this stage, when we put them into the beta is determined by level of polish and testing.

Is the question do we have a new estimate? We do not. If we did we would've announced it. We outlined our 3-month schedule some months ago though, as people have pointed out, so people should have a notion of our current stage and recent progress. But we have no intention to hang out in Early Access, just because we're not at a stage where things are solidified enough to talk publicly about schedules doesn't mean we're twiddling our thumbs. But we do want to make it the best game it can be, yes.

So what actually brought this topic about? Me and Brian screwing around? Well for one thing I'd say that we do in fact have free time and what we do in that free time is up to us, including looking at other games and deciding to give them shout outs. I don't think you'd need to worry about how many hours we put in for inXile, it is well over 40 a week for me easily, though it is spread over Torment and WL2. And the 10 seconds it takes out of our time to post a quick shoutout to Twitter or link on Facebook is not going to derail development, I promise. It just took way more time to type this reply than it takes to do the shoutouts we do.
Thanks for the response BN. Well worded and you made a bunch of good points. I hope you weren't trying to make me feel bad with that last point about how long it took you to type this. Please feel free to continue doing what you like in your own time - as someone who has invested in your salary I hope that you are having a good experience with this project. The 'Shout Outs' I was talking about are the parts of your Kickstarter updates, which are far apart, often vague and sometimes frustrating - that have absolutely nothing to do with Wasteland 2. By the way, I've been going to NMA since I was 16 (11 years ago) - too bad since your departure it's basically fallen to shambles. The headlines aren't even worded correctly anymore.

Listen, I have nothing but love for you and the team. Why would I be here if I didn't? Again - please do not take my post as acidic, I only want to know what a lot of people want to know: what is going on?

As someone who wants to see this project succeed in the best way and has nothing but patience for you to make the masterpiece I know you're capable of: Updates more often. Let us know what is happening. Stop wasting time with superfluous recommendations. Most of us know what's going on with other games. I'm stoked for Torment too. The polish you've done on the current beta areas look great - but how is it possible that the Darwin Village area was 'polished' enough to go out but other stuff (Silo 7 which shows up in the map, prison interior, Damonta, etc.) isn't? Is it because it's not done? Because that's what I think. Please don't respond with 'It might ruin the story' because we both know the next update is going to include them anyway.

I am a true fan asking a very serious question and I guarantee you I'm not alone: What is going on?

If you find this question unacceptable, please delete this comment and private message me at my email address (which you have). If I'm causing some kind of problem, I will immediately stop - but at this point I feel like you guys are just doing what you're doing and I'm never going to get my gear.

PS: How come, even though the project was delayed for obvious monetary reasons (influx) that the video diaries, novels, etc. have all been delayed? Are you really going to say that the additional money has made those things take longer too? Are you waiting for additional input on the videos? (MCA is absolved, I know he's working on a full-length novel, but everyone else needs to own up. Soon.)

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Grohal » April 28th, 2014, 3:36 am

Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Brother None » April 28th, 2014, 5:12 am

I don't know if people ever really want to hear it but Kickstarter updates take significant time from all the leads. Major public communication requires every head and several involved people to take hours out to write it, re-write it, read it and approve it. We've been trying to hit one every two weeks and that means some are less filled - though one should note that what we often do is repeat communication already made during those weeks, which looks repetitive to backers who follow us more closely but not all backers do that. We could stay quiet to pile up real news into the update but a steadier stream works better for us. Again, this is not a "guilt thing", I'm just being frank and saying that these things take more time than people realize, whereas shout-outs do not represent any time investment really and are just a nice thing to do.

Darwin Village is a "Cops map". It is not a full-fledged location. Each Cops map is pretty small and self-contained. Example of Cops maps are Radio Tower, Infected locations, Leve L'Upe Mine, Distillery and Darwin. Of those Darwin is one of the bigger ones, but it was never aiming to be a full-sized "major location". I don't know of any plans to significantly change that location (but I may simply not have heard).

I don't understand the question "What's going on?", considering we let people know what's going on February and we're still in the three-month period outlined there. If that passes and you don't hear from us, then a "what's going on?" makes sense. For now, what's going on is what we said is going on, we're working towards feature complete status and making good progress. Meanwhile we've been updating people on what systemic changes that means and detailing LA, so again, I don't get the "what's going on?" What more do you want us to say? I just don't think at this stage we're being unclear what's going on, there's just nothing new to say about it we haven't already said.

MCA's novella was delayed for turning into a novel. Stackpole's novella almost looked like it wouldn't happen before we found this solution of having Nathan Long co-write it with him, the first part is close to ready now. Video diaries take time and are simply not high-priority, I checked for the next one just recently and it's moving forward but I don't have a time-frame. Delays generally mean everything that is lower-priority gets moved forward because the game takes priority and all this stuff takes time to manage. That said, there were some happenstance issues with each, obviously the plan was not to delay them all to this point, but "sometimes things just happen" is my best answer there.
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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Arcanix » April 28th, 2014, 6:23 am

Brother None wrote: What more do you want us to say?
People are very psyched about this title and want to be spoiled. Alot of people want to hear everything, in essence they want to be the sole living testimony of legendary greatness. This feeling of separation from the project brings great pain due to ego reasons. No, most people do not know what it takes, in terms of time and resources, to satisfy these knowledge cravings.

Personally i would like to know about the random encounters and if any suggestions are being concidered.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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Re: Stop Dicking Around Devs

Post by Tets » April 28th, 2014, 6:44 am

I dont get it.

why want people that the devs talk about what they are going to do, instead of leting them make what they want to do and showing us this? Instead of talking about production, they should produce. Isnt a new beta build with release notes and ~monthly updates and ranger corners, twitter messages, etc. enough information?

A good beta development progress is the best thing they can do to show that they are on track to make a very good game :D

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