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Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 9:19 am
by kilobug
Zombra wrote:So if circumstances change, it's OK for promises to be broken. Got it.
That's sometimes ok, yes. If anything, taking additional money to make the console ports will make the PC versions _better_ (since it'll mean more testing) so it would be pretty counterproductive to reject the deal just to respect the letter of promise (but not the spirit of it, the "100% of our efforts for the PC version" spirit is that they'll do whatever they can to make the PC version as good as possible, refusing an opportunity to better the PC version because it involves making a console port too would be breaking the spirit of the promise).

But they aren't even breaking the letter of promise. As I already explained, a percentage is only meaningful when stated a percentage of what. "100% of our resources" can mean "100% of the resources we currently have committed to the project" or "100% of the resources we will ever commit to the project" or "100% of the resources we will commit to the project until the release" or ... Taking it to be anything else than "100% of the resources we currently have committed to the project" is a broad interpretation that is unlikely to be true.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 9:33 am
by IHaveHugeNick
Zombra wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:But the bulk of people working on it wouldn't even be on the team if Techland didn't pay for it.
First: what do you know about inXile's employment structure? Second: that's immaterial to the point that inXile is now spending effort on console versions of the game, contrary to what Brian said.
I don't know anything more than you know about who's working on what and who's paying for what. We're both speculating out of our ass here, so don't call me out for using the same tricks as you.

But assuming I'm right, how is it immaterial? We have two possibilities here. Option 1: the port was outsourced to Techland. Option 2: Techland gave them a warchest to make a console port, so they (presumably) hire a bunch of additional guys to make the port. No resources were pulled from PC versions, and no effort to spend on PC version was lost.

With a reasoning like that, you might just get angry at them for also working on Bard's Tale, since working simultaneously on two games means they're not giving 100% effort to Torment.

In regards to console release affecting the design, Brian already confirmed at Gamescom that the designers and developers didn't even know there was going ot be a console version.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 9:55 am
by Lord of Riva
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Besides, making console port is hardly a mammoth job, Xbox is basically running Windows these days.
im not joining in but that one is false, its quite a bit of work. this is not only true for consoles but multi platform in general.
Look, I'm not saying making a port is just clicking a button, but it's considerably easier with the current generation of consoles, now that Xbox is running Windows and the hardware has moved to x86 architecture. Both consoles are essentially PCs now. The most effort goes probably into making console UI and control scheme.
dont worry about it, as said i really didnt want to join full force in the discussion, while im a cynic myself some things i dont really care about and some things are business related in a way i does not concern me. I wasnt trying to argument either way but i wanted to clear up potential misconceptions, no harm done if you already knew it and i did not want to say that you dont have a clue what you are talking about, no offense taken and i wasnt trying to offend you :)

this repsonse is way to long for what i wanted to say lol ...

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 10:29 am
by Zombra
IHaveHugeNick wrote:With a reasoning like that, you might just get angry at them for also working on Bard's Tale, since working simultaneously on two games means they're not giving 100% effort to Torment.
Nobody ever said they were going to give 100% effort to Torment. They said they were giving 100% effort to making PC games and not console games.
In regards to console release affecting the design, Brian already confirmed at Gamescom that the designers and developers didn't even know there was going ot be a console version.
Hmm! I haven't seen the interviews yet. That's good news, could cool down a lot of the bad blood that's come up over the initial announcement.
kilobug wrote:As I already explained, a percentage is only meaningful when stated a percentage of what. "100% of our resources" can mean "100% of the resources we currently have committed to the project" or "100% of the resources we will ever commit to the project" or "100% of the resources we will commit to the project until the release" or ... Taking it to be anything else than "100% of the resources we currently have committed to the project" is a broad interpretation that is unlikely to be true.
Rules lawyering is not the way to reclaim the goodwill that was lost over this. Like the guy who cheated on his girlfriend, he may technically have never lied ... but only technically. Everyone who knows him will still think (correctly) that he's an asshole.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 11:23 am
by kilobug
Zombra wrote:Rules lawyering is not the way to reclaim the goodwill that was lost over this. Like the guy who cheated on his girlfriend, he may technically have never lied ... but only technically. Everyone who knows him will still think (correctly) that he's an asshole.
Except that in this situation, it's only through rules lawyering you can pretend they lied - under some interpretations of it they respected the letter of their promise, under some interpretations they broke the letter, but in anyway they respected the _spirit_ of the promise, since doing a console version with _complementary_ funding that doesn't take one dollar or man-hour from the PC versions will only make the PC versions _better_ (through additional testing).

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 17th, 2016, 11:43 am
by Zombra
No, but whatever.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 18th, 2016, 10:57 am
by sam2s
kilobug wrote:Taking it to be anything else than "100% of the resources we currently have committed to the project" is a broad interpretation that is unlikely to be true.
But won't the project manager, the producer, etc. necessarily have to split their focus between the PC and console development process now?

Maybe all the programmers and UI artists they hired for the console port were paid by Techland money and not kickstarter money, but if problems arise or decisions need to be made, that requires the participation of some of those whose work and creativity was "commited to the project" that was promised in the kickstarter.

(PS: I'm not a Codex member, but I do value their game reviews. I hope they do a fair-minded T:ToN review despite this kerfuffle.)

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 18th, 2016, 12:41 pm
by Drool
Zombra wrote:Like the guy who cheated on his girlfriend, he may technically have never lied ... but only technically. Everyone who knows him will still think (correctly) that he's an asshole.
Mildly amusing that you're casting casting the Codex as the jilted lover.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 18th, 2016, 6:04 pm
by Zombra
:lol:

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 18th, 2016, 10:19 pm
by Lord of Riva
(PS: I'm not a Codex member, but I do value their game reviews. I hope they do a fair-minded T:ToN review despite this kerfuffle.)
im not really visiting that site (not because i think its bad, i dont really know tbh) but if they have that influence their reviews they are hardly worth visiting.

if the game is bad suddenly due to console UI its totally fine to say that but whatever happened in the production should have no bearing on a review.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 25th, 2016, 6:24 am
by Goral
And of course developers won't even comment on this, they just shrug it off and wash their hands of this whole case blaming Techland for it. Well, I won't forget this and with bullying small developers, lying to your customers and treating RPG Codex as if it doesn't exist will have repercussions. I hope it will be worth it because I doubt inXile will manage to rise up again if Torment will flop. I'm sure Choplifter was a huge success though so no worries.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 25th, 2016, 9:32 pm
by tuluse
The worst part of this is the lack of a real answer about why the interview was cancelled.

InXile has two options. They can be a community driven company doing kickstarters and taking input from fans, and maybe dealing with fans who react more angrily then they thing is warranted. Or they can be a normal game dev who has a publisher that controls their interactions with their community.

If they want to be the latter, I won't be contributing to kickstarters or beta testing.

If they want to be the former they shouldn't be cancelling interviews with fan sites over petty bs.

So it's their choice.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 26th, 2016, 12:44 pm
by Drool
tuluse wrote:InXile has two options. They can be a community driven company doing kickstarters and taking input from fans, and maybe dealing with fans who react more angrily then they thing is warranted. Or they can be a normal game dev who has a publisher that controls their interactions with their community.
Or they can be the first while ignoring the wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from a jumped up forum with delusions of grandeur.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 26th, 2016, 6:57 pm
by tuluse
Drool wrote:
tuluse wrote:InXile has two options. They can be a community driven company doing kickstarters and taking input from fans, and maybe dealing with fans who react more angrily then they thing is warranted. Or they can be a normal game dev who has a publisher that controls their interactions with their community.
Or they can be the first while ignoring the wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from a jumped up forum with delusions of grandeur.
Why was the interview agreed to in the first place then?

Someone has clearly lied here. I firstly want honesty, then I'd like an interview granted, but I'll understand if the second doesn't happen.

Your position is that InXile is telling the codex to screw off. Fair enough, plenty of other devs have too. I buy their games when their good, but I don't kickstart or pre-order them. I don't beta test them. I don't have relationship with them other than producer of sometimes good games. If that's how InXile wants it, fair enough. Wish they had enough gumption to say so instead of hiding behind Techland.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 26th, 2016, 10:08 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
I wonder when these geniuses will realize that every whiny post only emphasizes that Codex is not worth bothering with.

Yeah, it's a real puzzle why InXile aren't communicating in this thread anymore. It's almost as if you've escalated a complete non-issue beyond all proportion, spend a month vomiting your self-importance and delusions of grandeur all over the internet, including here, on the Codex, on Steam forums, and even trying to get some external journalists interested, as if anybody would give a shit. And now you're surprised that nobody wants to deal with you lot.

Christ Almighty.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 27th, 2016, 8:02 am
by Bubbles
IHaveHugeNick wrote:and even trying to get some external journalists interested, as if anybody would give a shit
Nobody contacted Richard Cobbett, and yet...

https://twitter.com/richardcobbett/stat ... 8799819776

https://twitter.com/richardcobbett/stat ... 6293450752

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 27th, 2016, 12:23 pm
by Drool
tuluse wrote:Why was the interview agreed to in the first place then?
Hell if I know. My name ain't red.
Your position is that InXile is telling the codex to screw off.
Actually, my position is that inXile has decided to ignore the temper tantrum in the middle of the store in the hopes that it eventually tuckers itself out and we can all go about our lives.
Wish they had enough gumption to say so instead of hiding behind Techland.
Again, I think you're vastly inflating the Codex's importance. I sincerely doubt inXile is "hiding" or that they're in any way concerned about the Codex's opinion, let alone afraid of it.

Edit, also...
Bubbles wrote:Nobody contacted Richard Cobbett, and yet...
...who?

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 27th, 2016, 12:51 pm
by Zombra
Drool wrote:I think you're vastly inflating the Codex's importance. I sincerely doubt inXile is "hiding" or that they're in any way concerned about the Codex's opinion, let alone afraid of it.
You've mentioned this a couple times. There are definitely some who are overestimating the Codex's prestige, but ... honestly I think you're underestimating it. There's a reason every RPG developer knows about them, and it's not because racists and right-wingers sometimes post there.
Drool wrote:
Bubbles wrote:Nobody contacted Richard Cobbett, and yet...
...who?
He's a "name" in gaming journalism.
I don't read a lot of bylines either - I know him from his sadly defunct PC Gamer series, "Saturday Crapshoot". Some good stuff, check it out.

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 27th, 2016, 1:20 pm
by Bubbles
Drool wrote:
Bubbles wrote:Nobody contacted Richard Cobbett, and yet...
...who?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014- ... d-2-review

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/0 ... nera-beta/

Re: inXile / RPG Codex Gamescom Interview Scuttled

Posted: August 27th, 2016, 6:18 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
Yeah, his Rock Page Shotgun RPG column is actually half decent.