Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by cunningandvalor » October 2nd, 2014, 3:40 pm

SubjectEight wrote:And if the steam requirement is the case why did the choose that route.
Because it was easy, cheap and the pitch they made to get funding became less important to them as it got closer to the time to start making money. They've already said they will still honor the DRM-free promise by sending out discs to people who request them. Is it ideal? No. Is it what they said would happen? No. But it's what we have. We'll be lucky if the Collector's Editions even show up this year and contain the things they say they do. We haven't seen pictures of anything but prototypes. I bet they aren't even in production yet.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Woolfe » October 2nd, 2014, 4:50 pm

This was their first big kickstarted project.

They have already learnt from their mistakes in this one, and applied some of it to Torment.

Look at the tier structures, there is a lot more separation between Physical and Digital, with an extra cost on all the physical elements. Presumably to cover the extra costs on creation.

I imagine that they will learn from this experience as well, and we shouldn't get the same problem with Torment.(That doesn't preclude different problems of course :roll: )

I'll be more concerned if they don't learn than anything else. I have seen enough business dealings over the years to know if you don't have it locked down in contracts etc(heck even sometimes if you DO have it locked down) then at some point you will get an issue. Of course the flip side to that is, when you lock everything up in contracts and SLAs, you often have to pay more or you prevent your outsourcer from being nimble enough to meet challenges etc. Like all things it is a balancing game.

As for the delays. Anyone who didn't expect a timeframe slip when they tripled the kickstarter funds was fooling themselves. Personally I would have liked to see them delay it further still, but the amount of complaints they received because of the previous delays put kybosh to that.

The issue is that Kickstarter requires you to have an end date. But it doesn't allow you to account for scope change. Which is what happened in this case.
Would they still have had delays even if they had of been able to account for the scope change. Maybe, hell probably, I have worked in enough complex projects (both physical and software) to know that delays are pretty common even without scope change. It is simply implausible for even the most brilliant Project manager to account for every possible aspect that might cause a delay. And there are very few "brilliant" project managers out there.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by hobblinharry » October 2nd, 2014, 8:21 pm

I've thought about how ridiculous this whole "no tracking #" things is, but then I thought... maybe Deep Silver was not provided backer e-mails, and only has a list of addresses to ship goods to.

If that's the case, Deep Silver can provide inXile with the tracking # for each good they ship, and inXile can tie that tracking # to their backer database (which already exists). I mean, there WILL be tracking#s after all, as long as Deep Silver doesn't hire some guy named Frank to drive around in his Honda Civic and toss the boxes out of his car window paperboy style.

I mean, this isn't impossible. It might be "hard" but tracking #s make people happy, and happy customers are repeat customers. I really want to defend inXile and throw Deep Silver under the bus, but inXile has a hand in this too.

For the record I didn't back a tier that gets physical goods but I think not getting a tracking # is ridiculous. A large chunk of my job deals with logistics and I can tell you that people go crazy if they don't know when the things they ordered are supposed to arrive.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Drool » October 2nd, 2014, 10:06 pm

Hell, every single Kickstarter project I've backed has hit delays. Every single one.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Woolfe » October 2nd, 2014, 10:16 pm

Drool wrote:Hell, every single Kickstarter project I've backed has hit delays. Every single one.
Not me. But the ones that haven't have been from Miniature manufacturers who use it as a way to get initial funding to create a new line of mini's. :ugeek:

The big ones. That were asking for 10's of thousands of dollars + yep all delayed at some point.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by sear » October 2nd, 2014, 10:48 pm

SubjectEight wrote:And if the steam requirement is the case why did the choose that route.
There is 1+ month turn-around on printing discs and we did not want to end up avoiding updates, fixes and new content just because of that fact (when we are dealing with, let's face it, overwhelmingly a digitally-based audience). The game improved substantially and received a lot of polish between RTM and final, and we did not want players to miss out. Steam was by far the best and most familiar option available.

There is a subset of players which feels that by tying the discs to Steam, this goes against the DRM-free "ethos" (even though we don't actually use Steam DRM). Personally, I don't think needing a login and password constitutes DRM, or using at third-party client to download and update software, provided I can play it without - but some do feel this counts as DRM. For some, even the very presence of a third-party service or web site constitutes DRM. Though I disagree with that, I do think it's fair to say that the idea of "just a box and a disc" is in keeping with the old-school appeal of a game like Wasteland 2, so we do understand that perspective.

That said, I do not want to debate those facts with people because it really just boils down to personal preferences; there's no right or wrong answer there. But, as a company, we are absolutely trying to meet everyone's desires as best we can in a way that ultimately still provides the best outcome for everyone overall.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by sbock » October 2nd, 2014, 11:37 pm

Drool wrote:Hell, every single Kickstarter project I've backed has hit delays. Every single one.
Yes, the same for me and I have absolutely no problem with this circumstance. I expected most delays even before the devs confirmed it. That's game/software development and nobody ever can change this. Crowd-funded or not the rules are the same.
On the other hand I demand from a crow-funded project information in a timely manner why exactly it is delayed. If the reason is plausible for me I'm perfectly fine with the decision.
Look at the first mayor delay of Wasteland 2. We have more money, we want to do a more complex game, sorry but you have to wait a few more month. I think very few people have a problem with that.
But this Deep Silver fiasco simply misses a good reason. "Sorry, but this is not something we can control" is a lame excuse IMHO.
I pledged 15$ extra for international shipping to Germany so I expected some problems with delivery time, customs etc. and this are really problems out of inXile's control. But now we have an incompetent German publisher who can produce boxes for the retail market but can't deliver Kickstarter goods and/or tracking numbers? That's ridiculous.
I can only hope that some heads will roll and inXile will learn from this disaster for Torment and all other projects in the future...

The game is really good and the 15$ extra are well spend. But I fear they are now in Deep Silver's hands. At least I supported some jobs here in Germany... :lol:
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Ranger1 » October 2nd, 2014, 11:54 pm

Can't you guys give the Deep Silver people our emails? Then at least they can tell us when the box is on its way; with an estimated time of arrival. I want to be home on the right day if possible.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Crosmando » October 3rd, 2014, 12:00 am

I hate having to sign for stuff, because it means if I miss the ring on the doorbell I need to go down to the Post Office and show ID to collect it. Can't understand why they can't just put everything on the doorstep regardless.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by The Tallest » October 3rd, 2014, 4:10 am

Crosmando wrote:I hate having to sign for stuff, because it means if I miss the ring on the doorbell I need to go down to the Post Office and show ID to collect it. Can't understand why they can't just put everything on the doorstep regardless.
Wait, you have to show an ID to pick things up at the post office? I've never once had to show an ID. I just give them the address...hell come to think of it they know both my wife and I. We just walk in the door and our package is on the counter. They'll even drive packages to our door step if they won't fit in the boxes at the end of the street.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Crosmando » October 3rd, 2014, 4:13 am

The Tallest wrote:
Crosmando wrote:I hate having to sign for stuff, because it means if I miss the ring on the doorbell I need to go down to the Post Office and show ID to collect it. Can't understand why they can't just put everything on the doorstep regardless.
Wait, you have to show an ID to pick things up at the post office? I've never once had to show an ID. I just give them the address...hell come to think of it they know both my wife and I. We just walk in the door and our package is on the counter. They'll even drive packages to our door step if they won't fit in the boxes at the end of the street.
Depends on how much the package is worth, if it's over a certain amount they can't leave it at the door if you don't sign for it, so they just leave a card thing saying to collect at Post Office. At least that's how I believe it is here in Australia.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by sear » October 3rd, 2014, 7:15 am

Ranger1 wrote:Can't you guys give the Deep Silver people our emails? Then at least they can tell us when the box is on its way; with an estimated time of arrival. I want to be home on the right day if possible.
We'll see what we can do about shipping confirmations, I believe this won't be a problem for us (that would more or less be on our end, but Deep Silver may be able to do it too), but I'm not sure if estimates will be possible since it's so highly variable depending on where everyone lives.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Drool » October 3rd, 2014, 1:11 pm

Crosmando wrote:Can't understand why they can't just put everything on the doorstep regardless.
Because packages have a nasty habit of growing legs and walking away.
sbock wrote:But this Deep Silver fiasco simply misses a good reason. "Sorry, but this is not something we can control" is a lame excuse IMHO.
I understand the annoyance (believe me, I share it), but what is inXile supposed to do? Storm the offices of Deep Silver? If Deep Silver said, "October 15th at 3:34 PM, we will ship" and inXile was telling us "mid October", then yes, that's inXile not giving us information. But if Deep Silver isn't being any more specific with inXile than "we'll ship in three or four weeks, and the CEs some time after that" then I can't really blame inXile for the lack of specifics. I mean, they can't give us specifics they don't have.

Yes, in many ways, inXile has been atrocious with getting us information. They would go lights-out for months at a time, leaving us wondering just what the hell is going on. But they never gave us intentionally bad information. If they say they don't have specifics from Deep Silver, I'm inclined to believe them. It's certainly more likely than some grand conspiracy on inXile's part to keep us in the dark for... nebulous sinister reasons.
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Dominativus » October 3rd, 2014, 5:36 pm

The issue with not having physical goods on a Kickstarter is like someone else said, those physical goods bring in a lot more funding then pure digital tiers. Removing the physical tiers would mean having to get many more backers to make up the lost funding, which for games with a niche market is going to be extremely hard. Or they would have to lower the cost of the high digital tiers, come up with new things to add to new digital tiers to bridge the gap between the low and high tiers or remove stuff from the existing tiers to make new digital tiers to bridge the gap.

Me personally, I love the CEs of games so always buy them for games I really like and that have cool swag I want. I pledged $250 for the signed CE tier, but if they didn't have physical tiers I'd probably have gone with the cheapest digital tier that included the game. I would hope that InXile would have done some rough estimates on how much producing and shipping the physical goods would cost before setting the tier pricing. That way they covered their cost for them and still made at least the same profit as the digital tiers. If they didn't hopefully they learned from it, which it sounds like they may have with Torment.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by sbock » October 4th, 2014, 3:01 am

I understand the annoyance (believe me, I share it), but what is inXile supposed to do? Storm the offices of Deep Silver? If Deep Silver said, "October 15th at 3:34 PM, we will ship" and inXile was telling us "mid October", then yes, that's inXile not giving us information. But if Deep Silver isn't being any more specific with inXile than "we'll ship in three or four weeks, and the CEs some time after that" then I can't really blame inXile for the lack of specifics. I mean, they can't give us specifics they don't have.

Yes, in many ways, inXile has been atrocious with getting us information. They would go lights-out for months at a time, leaving us wondering just what the hell is going on. But they never gave us intentionally bad information. If they say they don't have specifics from Deep Silver, I'm inclined to believe them. It's certainly more likely than some grand conspiracy on inXile's part to keep us in the dark for... nebulous sinister reasons.
Well, don't get me wrong. Personally I'm pleased with the amount of information given during the development most of the time. And I don't believe inXile give us intentional bad or no information.
I only missed sometimes a direct posting from Brian Fargo himself here on the boards but I know this was only wishful thinking. (Nothing against Brother None and sea, you guys make an excellent job)
What I think is that Deep Silver was a poor choice from the beginning. InXile succeeded in the difficult part and made a great game but simply screwed at a seemingly simple task. To deliver some goods has nothing to do with game development. They had more than enough time to get this right.
It's a little bit ironic. They made a Kickstarter blaming the publishers and now a publisher is ruining a part of the experience for some of the Kickstarter...
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by N0L1 » October 6th, 2014, 5:52 am

Hi Guys, Could you answer, What kind of Changes should we expect next ? Do you feel Movements Points , Combat and Character Deepness aren't there ? Will you release content patches to add new things ?
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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by frabron » October 6th, 2014, 6:01 am

Yes, I agree with Noli, it would be nice to have some kind of forecast on what we can expect for the next patch!

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Tets » October 6th, 2014, 6:14 am

N0L1 wrote:Hi Guys, Could you answer, What kind of Changes should we expect next ? Do you feel Movements Points , Combat and Character Deepness aren't there ? Will you release content patches to add new things ?
i quess the next patches will fix things that are broken ... allthough inxile announced "achievments" for steam.. dont know hwo this got such a high priority..

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by frabron » October 6th, 2014, 6:48 am

I saw a post from sea where he mentioned that the next patch will fix the AP issue, so yes, some fixes are definitely in. Some kind of roadmap or timeline would be nice to have in order to get an idea how Inxile percieves the status of the game.

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Re: Update 57: Deep Breath…OK, Now Work Continues On

Post by Brother None » October 6th, 2014, 4:02 pm

Next patch should resolve the movement bug, upgrade loc, fix the memory leak issue and no doubt a long list of other bugfixes and tweaks, particularly as we polish up LA. I don't have full notes yet. The next patch doesn't introduce new content or Steam achievements yet, to the best of my knowledge, fixes have priority.

Targeting end of this week currently.
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