Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Drool » November 20th, 2013, 9:17 pm

windex wrote:I have waited long for games to come out that kept getting pushed back so I am used to it but this is going a bit too far.
It's been two months. That's nothing in software development. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was in development hell for six years. How long has Valve been working on the new Half Life? How long did Duke Nukem: Forever languish? Sure, it's frustrating, but let's be honest here: an 18 month development cycle was ridiculously over optimistic.

I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by paultakeda » November 20th, 2013, 9:39 pm

Drool wrote:I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.
Exactly.

Image

Not far now.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Darkzone » November 20th, 2013, 11:15 pm

Drool wrote:
windex wrote:I have waited long for games to come out that kept getting pushed back so I am used to it but this is going a bit too far.
It's been two months. That's nothing in software development. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was in development hell for six years. How long has Valve been working on the new Half Life? How long did Duke Nukem: Forever languish? Sure, it's frustrating, but let's be honest here: an 18 month development cycle was ridiculously over optimistic.

I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Order » November 21st, 2013, 3:00 am

Darkzone wrote:
Drool wrote:
windex wrote:I have waited long for games to come out that kept getting pushed back so I am used to it but this is going a bit too far.
It's been two months. That's nothing in software development. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was in development hell for six years. How long has Valve been working on the new Half Life? How long did Duke Nukem: Forever languish? Sure, it's frustrating, but let's be honest here: an 18 month development cycle was ridiculously over optimistic.

I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.
Dito.
The time waiting might not kill you, but you could perish during daily activities before it's released.. (firmly hope this does not occur)

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by windex » November 21st, 2013, 4:00 am

I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.[/quote]
Dito.[/quote]

The time waiting might not kill you, but you could perish during daily activities before it's released.. (firmly hope this does not occur)[/quote]

Ok, back on target here: The beta. We have been waiting for the beta not the game, the beta which we paid extra for, the beta as in that which was supposed to be out last month, beta as in buggy without all the features that is all we want now, until this game is finish (which I'm beginning to wonder now if there ever will be an actual game T shirts and and posters maybe but a game?) I know for sure there is a game being developed for Xenonauts and for Age of Decadence I am in their betas and alphas as I was in many others. So I have had a chance to see what there games are about and how they are being developed in what direction the are going and that they do indeed have something I am supporting not just a few bits of concept art.
When you refer to the actual game, wasteland 2, in development its been much longer than two months we don't really know but at least a year-should be the kickstarter began back then. Anyway, read my previous post about other games that were early access and problems with saving in ironman ( that is virtually all indie games now) and alpha and betas give early access.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by SagaDC » November 21st, 2013, 5:18 am

windex wrote:Ok, back on target here: The beta. We have been waiting for the beta not the game, the beta which we paid extra for, the beta as in that which was supposed to be out last month, beta as in buggy without all the features that is all we want now, until this game is finish (which I'm beginning to wonder now if there ever will be an actual game T shirts and and posters maybe but a game?) I know for sure there is a game being developed for Xenonauts and for Age of Decadence I am in their betas and alphas as I was in many others. So I have had a chance to see what there games are about and how they are being developed in what direction the are going and that they do indeed have something I am supporting not just a few bits of concept art..
Let's keep things in perspective, here. Xenonauts has been in production for four years, and Age of Decadence has been in production for almost ten. In comparison, Wasteland 2 is just hitting the one year mark. If you had the patience to wait for Xenonauts or Age of Decadence, then Wasteland 2 should be no problem.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by McGarnagle » November 21st, 2013, 5:26 am

windex wrote:
Ok, back on target here: The beta. We have been waiting for the beta not the game, the beta which we paid extra for, the beta as in that which was supposed to be out last month, beta as in buggy without all the features that is all we want now, until this game is finish (which I'm beginning to wonder now if there ever will be an actual game T shirts and and posters maybe but a game?) I know for sure there is a game being developed for Xenonauts and for Age of Decadence I am in their betas and alphas as I was in many others. So I have had a chance to see what there games are about and how they are being developed in what direction the are going and that they do indeed have something I am supporting not just a few bits of concept art.
When you refer to the actual game, wasteland 2, in development its been much longer than two months we don't really know but at least a year-should be the kickstarter began back then. Anyway, read my previous post about other games that were early access and problems with saving in ironman ( that is virtually all indie games now) and alpha and betas give early access.
My point exactly, but I do have to correct you, the final was supposed to be out in October, so the beta should have been out sometime in the summer. We aren't asking for the final release, they can take their time on that, all we want is the beta which we paid extra for. Someone above mentioned getting a refund, if it goes much longer that's something worth considering.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Woolfe » November 21st, 2013, 5:28 am

windex wrote: Ok, back on target here: The beta. We have been waiting for the beta not the game, the beta which we paid extra for, the beta as in that which was supposed to be out last month, beta as in buggy without all the features that is all we want now, until this game is finish (which I'm beginning to wonder now if there ever will be an actual game T shirts and and posters maybe but a game?)
Windex, the beta will be done when it is done. It isn't even 2 months overdue. If you paid "extra" for it then I am sorry, but ultimately that is the risk you take.
windex wrote: I know for sure there is a game being developed for Xenonauts and for Age of Decadence I am in their betas and alphas as I was in many others.

Good for you, and good for them. They are obviously doing things differently.
windex wrote:So I have had a chance to see what there games are about and how they are being developed in what direction the are going and that they do indeed have something I am supporting not just a few bits of concept art.
There has been more than concept art released.
windex wrote:When you refer to the actual game, wasteland 2, in development its been much longer than two months we don't really know but at least a year-should be the kickstarter began back then.
What? That sentence doesn't even make sense? The kickstarter came out in Mar 2012. So roughly 19 months. Their original estimate was 18 months. That was for the $900 000 mark that they were aiming for. They raised 3 times that amount, and have rescheduled due to additional content, which they announced in June, to almost no surprise. At that time they stated they were aiming for a beta release in October. They have now slipped by a month.
windex wrote:Anyway, read my previous post about other games that were early access and problems with saving in ironman ( that is virtually all indie games now) and alpha and betas give early access.
OK, your point has been made, you are not happy about the delay on the Beta.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by veryalien » November 21st, 2013, 6:45 am

Darkzone wrote:
Drool wrote:
windex wrote:I have waited long for games to come out that kept getting pushed back so I am used to it but this is going a bit too far.
It's been two months. That's nothing in software development. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was in development hell for six years. How long has Valve been working on the new Half Life? How long did Duke Nukem: Forever languish? Sure, it's frustrating, but let's be honest here: an 18 month development cycle was ridiculously over optimistic.

I've been waiting a quarter of a century for this game. A few months isn't going to kill me.
Dito.
The game itself has been delayed indefinitely. We're getting roughly 6 hours of gameplay in this beta.

I'm just saying, it's not just a few months.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by TheHarpoMarxist » November 21st, 2013, 7:14 am

I can't help but laugh at some of these posts in the "demand immediate beta" contingent. It has reached the point of self parody. I sincerely apologize that my appeal to be reasonable irked so many of you so severely. You have all made your point - through some combination of impatience and lack of understanding on how game development works, you've become severely annoyed. Fair enough, its your prerogative. If you want to stick your head in the dirt and then complain that you can't see, go for it. I won't try to gently help you not look so silly going forward. Instead, since you're all so hell bent on complaining, can we at least bring something else up that's actually worth talking/complaining about? How about a moratorium on the phrase "white knighting"? If you use it as a basic derogatory term for someone who disagrees with you, it has no meaning.

Magarnacle - I pointed out that you can ask for a refund from Kickstarter *IF* the person putting up the project you pledged to fails to deliver on a reward. So if InXile cancels (not delays, cancels) the beta THEN you can get your money back. Since all you paid for is the beta, this might be a good option for you, should it occur. You had interest only in that, not in the game itself. Fine.

If you are truly ready to wash your hands of the whole thing, I might be up from purchasing your $55 pledge from you. Its holiday time, and it would be a good gift for someone (I just need to check in with the person casually and make sure they haven't already pledged for the game - I am serious about this.) That way you don't have to keep complaining (until, of course, the beta does come out at which point you'll regret selling it off.)

Have patience and heart everyone, and please try and not be so testy. I was honestly just trying to help you out. Like you, I'm also eager to see the beta and the final game - I'm not some monster "whining" about your unreasonable complaints. I'm just a guy trying to point out (like many other here) that your complaints are on the unreasonable side, and you might want to step back and reflect. That's all. No toes were meant to be stepped on. I would strongly advise against kickstarting anything that uses the word "estimated" in the future, if any delay gets you so very riled.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Brother None » November 21st, 2013, 8:03 am

This thread's getting a little messy. Everyone, DO NOT make it personal. Everyone has the right to their opinion. We are not going to change our thinking regarding where we need the beta to be to release it, but people should feel free to disagree with us on that.

Also, DO NOT link to magazine scans or other illegal materials.
Lucius wrote:These "daily" twitter updates have just started happening recently. They are MUCH appreciated, but I do feel that has been prompted by this forum community. Those little nuggets that BF started posting pretty much started as this forum started uproaring 2 or 3 days ago.
There is no direct connection between the two things, no, tho reminders never hurt. It is good to know they're appreciated!
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by tazntaylr » November 21st, 2013, 8:20 am

As Drool said, I've been waiting since the original. Just playing WL1 with other games on standby.

Keep up the good work guys.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by McGarnagle » November 21st, 2013, 8:25 am

TheHarpoMarxist wrote:Magarnacle - I pointed out that you can ask for a refund from Kickstarter *IF* the person putting up the project you pledged to fails to deliver on a reward. So if InXile cancels (not delays, cancels) the beta THEN you can get your money back. Since all you paid for is the beta, this might be a good option for you, should it occur. You had interest only in that, not in the game itself. Fine.
Actually, I have great interest in the final game, but I paid extra for the early beta access. If you're interested in paying me the extra $40 I spent on the higher tier, I might consider it.

I do need you to clear something up for me though. You've made it quite clear that if a kickstarter project is only delayed, but not canceled, I can't ask for a refund, correct? So are you saying that if a kickstarter project were to be constantly delayed, but never officially canceled, I can't get a refund of any kind? If that's not the case how long would a project need to be delayed before a refund would be warranted?

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by 4Aces » November 21st, 2013, 8:27 am

Lucius wrote:Things I remember to be a gruelling slog *cough* Sewers *cough* can be finished in about an hour of play.
That is what I was remembering. I forgot some of the issue was the text display. I will have to check it out then. Thanks!
dorkboy wrote:@4Aces
ok, i'll bite.. how will they know what exact situation/set of circumstances to spawn then? :?
[that's not meant as a rhetorical question, btw, i genuinely don't know the answer.. ;) ]
A program known as a bug trap. It is either a RAM dump for a hard-crash or a log system that tracks certain actions (like spawns) for general bugs. So when they see that spawning a particular enemy results in a CTD, then they load a test (aka blank) map and spawn one for themselves. If they see that object #3659 results triggers an infinite loop when skill #005 is applied, then they spawn the object and a team with all skills, on a blank map.

If the test map does not work, then the load the actual map the error was recorded on and test again. If the result is map specific, then that means there is interference and they get their programmers to activate the variable monitoring to see where the leak is.

If they cannot replicate the issue via console, that means the bug is deeper, most likely coming from an earlier point in the game,and only making itself known later (aka save game corruption). So a saved game is of limited use unless they are tracking everything (all object, people, etc.) encoding most of the world in the save, like a Bethesda game does.

That being said, if you have a small army at your disposal, and want to load and test 10K saves instead of just having a database that auto-sorts and eliminates duplicates, then saved games might be desired. Many forum reports of bugs sound different but turn out the be the same thing, and you have to expect the same from an open beta. Personally, I prefer bug trap reports.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Brother None » November 21st, 2013, 8:41 am

McGarnagle wrote:I do need you to clear something up for me though. You've made it quite clear that if a kickstarter project is only delayed, but not canceled, I can't ask for a refund, correct? So are you saying that if a kickstarter project were to be constantly delayed, but never officially canceled, I can't get a refund of any kind? If that's not the case how long would a project need to be delayed before a refund would be warranted?
Honestly, the framework on this is barely in place. This is all Kickstarter tells you as a project creator. It says nothing on timing, quality of fulfillfument, etc etc. They didn't even have this at the time we Kickstarted WL2 I think. It doesn't matter to us so much because we are going to deliver on all our rewards, it's just that to us timing is the least important thing there, compared to quality. For every reward due. This is a bit of a process but as I think you've said, all backers have been fine with us pushing final release date ahead, and there's really not been many complaints about beta timing.

But I do have to agree with our forum posters here in that it's important you realize the difference between backing and a purchase, and the loose framing of reward fulfillment is part of that. Kickstarter and our late backer stores are all donation systems, you're pledging to help us make it happen, you're not making a purchase from us. And that's what we'll do, we'll make it happen. Honestly, I get that you don't agree with how we're thinking in beta release, opinions can differ on this, but the reason we crowdfunded is we could have integrity in our decisions, and do what we feel is best. Putting a beta out there sooner rather than later may be a more economically wise decision (I honestly don't know), but it's not what we feel comfortable with. I'm sorry you disagree and please feel free to continue to disagree, but it's not going to change, all I can tell you is to be patient and I hope you'll enjoy the beta when it's out.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by TheHarpoMarxist » November 21st, 2013, 8:55 am

I'm interested. When you say 'might' is that a 'yes' or a 'no'? I could take the $40 and add it to my pledge, or throw a little extra in there to make it a $55 for some else. I just need to see if this person hasn't already pledged or purchased through the late backer store. Then we'll have to find out if InXile can handle that kind of transfer and work something out over paypal or something. I don't want to start doing all that ground work unless you're actually serious though :).

Brother None is right. I might be able to clarify further, as I've run a couple kickstarters, advised for a few, and pledged to far too many :). If a creator fails to deliver a reward, you can make a petition to get your money back (it isn't a guarantee, like I've been saying - Kickstarter isn't a store with a refund policy.) So you can't yet ask for your money back because InXile still plans on releasing a beta. You're still going to get that reward.

Now, if InXile were to officially scratch the beta, then you could ask for (and likely get) a refund.

Kickstarter is very protective of the people who put up projects - they understand that projects hit snags. Its a platform for artists/producers, not a store for customers which goes out of its way to protect customers (which was what I was trying to express earlier, perhaps a little too harshly.)

Its worth googling their terms and services, and also worth noting the site goes out of its way to say that rewards are delivered with an estimated - not a guaranteed - timeframe. Its usually (always?) written write below each tier. Take a look: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2. The "estimate" for all rewards is October 2013.

Hope this helps - please let me know if you have any questions.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Brother None » November 21st, 2013, 9:10 am

Honestly I kind of wish Kickstarter didn't even do that. The very notion of estimating the final release date of a video game to a month with a) no finalized budget and b) barely into pre-production is ludicrous. This is an industry where delays regularly happen for release dates announced when well into production, the very idea of having a release estimate that's less than say a half-year window at the stage you're Kickstarting is really quite silly.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by TheHarpoMarxist » November 21st, 2013, 9:20 am

Yeah, its kind of strange that they don't give an option to just say "TBD" or put up a wide range (late 2013 to 2014).

A lot of my theater friends do kickstarters for shows - and those make sense. You're looking to do the show at a particular time, and you probably have the space booked when you're doing the kickstarter. An estimate makes sense (gives you some leeway to deliver the shirt or whatever late.) But for a video game, or a film, it seems sort of silly. There's no way you can possibly conceive of how long or short something is going to take.

I'm actually really impressed that you guys are under the two year mark since the kickstarter happened and are so close to having a playable Beta out. I imagine part of that efficiency stems from not having a third party publisher shackling your vision or forcing you back to the drawing board when they get nervous about a bold idea. I'm sure it helps to not have to spend resources fighting for every innovation. At any rate, its pretty damn impressive considering the game also grew substantially in size due to the kickstarter success.

EDIT/SIDEBAR: Does anyone know anything about Grimoire? Apparently its been in development long enough to almost be able to legally vote.
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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by veryalien » November 21st, 2013, 10:19 am

I don't think this article really applies to Inxile, but it does sum up the way a backer can feel:

http://mattchat.us/?p=398

I've always liked Matt's articles, and I believe he did a long interview with Brian a few years ago so he's no "hater" for sure.

I'm expecting Torment, and Project Eternity to hit similar delays. I have pretty much decided that the closest I'll get to crowd funding, going forward, is Steam Early Access, and only after seeing regular updates from the developer.

There are a few other projects I backed on KS or through their main site that are also plagued by delays.

I don't think this is a good thing.

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Re: Update 38: Almost there, Almost there…

Post by Grohal » November 21st, 2013, 10:30 am

We just have a lesson to be learned here: InXile's "almost" isn't the almost of most other human beings and certainly not that of some late backers. :mrgreen:
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