Update 35: We’re Still Listening

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dflatline » September 15th, 2013, 7:55 pm

Lucius wrote:
Yuri wrote:I'd say leveling up is unnecessary.
Without it though, that opens the door to games like Assassin's Creed, Batman, Dishonored and Bioshock being called RPG's, which they are not.
Why aren't they?

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by rjshae » September 15th, 2013, 8:12 pm

Lucius wrote:Personally, I have a pretty loose definition of RPG. To be an RPG a game must have character progression; where character gets more powerful by leveling up in some way. There is inventory management and better equipment as your character progresses. Lastly, some amount of exploration.

Lots of people add C&C and dialog choices to the list but I dont think that is necessary to be labeled an RPG. To me, Skyrim is an RPG. Based on Wikipedia, I'd call nethack an RPG as well.
I have a pretty simple definition: the more choices you provide the players for their characters--whether it is in character development, equipment choice, story progress, or ability of the PC to influence the setting--the closer the game is to a true RPG. For the multi-player case, I add in the criteria of the non-zero sum game. I don't think that leveling or classes are necessary for the single-player game, but they do provide a coarseness of choice that helps the multi-player game be more cooperative. The players need to work together to make that next level and to overcome their individual weaknesses.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Lucius » September 15th, 2013, 8:45 pm

dflatline wrote:
Lucius wrote:
Yuri wrote:I'd say leveling up is unnecessary.
Without it though, that opens the door to games like Assassin's Creed, Batman, Dishonored and Bioshock being called RPG's, which they are not.
Why aren't they?
Because they don't have character progression.

I think few people on this planet would call those games I listed as RPG's, regardless of your definition. The ones who do, would probably call Crysis and Call of Duty RPG's as well. Hell, you could call sports games RPG's since you roleplay a team manager. The point is lines have to be drawn somewhere if we are going to classify games into different categories. I offered my personal opinion of where I draw those lines. Feel free to draw yours wherever you like.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 15th, 2013, 9:38 pm

Lucius wrote:Because they don't have character progression.
The player character gains more and better abilities as the game goes on. If Nethack's an RPG, so are those. Hell, so is Dark Sector and Saint's Row by that definition.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by ffordesoon » September 15th, 2013, 10:07 pm

You people are doing this to spite me, aren't you.

Sigh. Very well.

"A computer role-playing game is a genre of video game wherein the player uses the systems at her disposal to solve a number of problems within a contiguous gameworld." That's as close as I've come to a definition that accomplishes everything I want it to, and I'm still not happy with it. It's too broad, and the language is too vague. For example, a gameworld can be narratively contiguous without being a contiguous landmass. But what I like about the definition is that it gets away from specific mechanics and gets at the spirit of the player's experience in an RPG.

Feel free to pick it apart.

Oh, and I would say Saints Row is an RPG. GTA isn't, though. It's close, but the structure is just different enough to disqualify it, I think.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Ronin73 » September 15th, 2013, 10:20 pm

This probably deserves it's own topic. Ah well, I'm sure Brother None has nothing else better to do than to divide all this up :P

Anyway, I kind of wish that the term RPG was divided in categories somehow, because the RPG's I grew up with really don't feel like the same the RPG's that I am playing today, and it's not something that I can put my finger on either.

To say that I find the definition about as clear as mud would be an understatement.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 15th, 2013, 10:29 pm

ffordesoon wrote:You people are doing this to spite me, aren't you.

Sigh. Very well.

"A computer role-playing game is a genre of video game wherein the player uses the systems at her disposal to solve a number of problems within a contiguous gameworld." That's as close as I've come to a definition that accomplishes everything I want it to, and I'm still not happy with it. It's too broad, and the language is too vague. For example, a gameworld can be narratively contiguous without being a contiguous landmass. But what I like about the definition is that it gets away from specific mechanics and gets at the spirit of the player's experience in an RPG.

Feel free to pick it apart.

Oh, and I would say Saints Row is an RPG. GTA isn't, though. It's close, but the structure is just different enough to disqualify it, I think.
*hands ffordesoon some drugs of some type that may or may not be medicinal in behaviour, but in theory should help with headaches* :D

Yeah this is something that I have wondered about myself.
I would make a change to your definition.

"A computer role-playing game is a genre of video game wherein the player uses the systems at her disposal to solve a number of problems within a contiguous gameworld. This is performed through the use of an Avatar or Avatars, who progress in capabilities, and whose capabilities are to some degree defined by the player."

Again still too vague and open, but a little more specific.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 15th, 2013, 10:33 pm

As I stated last time, the def I was told at a class I took by a developer is that the industry definition was "any game where you get experience" was called an RPG. So everything from Final Fantasy to Call of Duty fell under that umbrella as long as your character changed due to some gain in numbers. Whereas you have things like Zelda and Metroid, fell under the 'adventure game' umbrella. Most other games fell under action or sports.

But as per the last discussion, the definition that most people wanted was a essay that had a 'if it has 6 of the 12 twelve features, had an overly complex game mechanic, required a math degree,and the moon aligned with the stars' then it was an RPG.

Games have gotten more complex, but just because you had more things you could do in Dragon Age, doesn't make Dragon Warrior any less a RPG.

You'd probably get any equally complex discussion on what Science Fiction is.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 15th, 2013, 10:46 pm

GodComplex wrote:Games have gotten more complex, but just because you had more things you could do in Dragon Age, doesn't make Dragon Warrior any less a RPG.
Dragon Warriors was a great game.(assuming you mean the P&P Dragon Warriors)

And try this.

"A game is a computer RPG if it features player-driven development of a persistent character or characters via the making of consequential choices."

Stolen from here http://sinisterdesign.net/what-makes-an ... efinition/
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 15th, 2013, 10:57 pm

GodComplex wrote:But as per the last discussion, the definition that most people wanted was a essay that had a 'if it has 6 of the 12 twelve features, had an overly complex game mechanic, required a math degree,and the moon aligned with the stars' then it was an RPG.
Probably because it's easy to poke holes in every definition. The one you gave, for instance, would include many Castlevania games and Blood Dragon, as both have "experience points" and levels. While your character certainly improves, it's on a linear, predetermined path, and as much fun as Aria of Sorrow was, I wouldn't call it an RPG.

Personally, I just prefer to use the "definition" for the difference between art and porn: I know it when I see it.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 15th, 2013, 11:04 pm

Drool wrote:
GodComplex wrote:But as per the last discussion, the definition that most people wanted was a essay that had a 'if it has 6 of the 12 twelve features, had an overly complex game mechanic, required a math degree,and the moon aligned with the stars' then it was an RPG.
Probably because it's easy to poke holes in every definition. The one you gave, for instance, would include many Castlevania games and Blood Dragon, as both have "experience points" and levels. While your character certainly improves, it's on a linear, predetermined path, and as much fun as Aria of Sorrow was, I wouldn't call it an RPG.

Personally, I just prefer to use the "definition" for the difference between art and porn: I know it when I see it.
One man's art is another man's porn...

Or indeed

One man's porn is another man's art...

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dflatline » September 15th, 2013, 11:22 pm

Lucius wrote: Because they don't have character progression.

I think few people on this planet would call those games I listed as RPG's, regardless of your definition. The ones who do, would probably call Crysis and Call of Duty RPG's as well. Hell, you could call sports games RPG's since you roleplay a team manager. The point is lines have to be drawn somewhere if we are going to classify games into different categories. I offered my personal opinion of where I draw those lines. Feel free to draw yours wherever you like.
I'm obviously playing devils advocate here but they do have character progression, every single one of them. The Arkham Batman games pretty much have experience points that when they hit a certain level you're allowed to improve your Batman. I'm interested in your opinion and where you draw the lines, so I'm wondering what exactly you mean by character progression and how you define it is any different from say, Arkham Asylum/City.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 15th, 2013, 11:22 pm

Drool wrote:
GodComplex wrote:But as per the last discussion, the definition that most people wanted was a essay that had a 'if it has 6 of the 12 twelve features, had an overly complex game mechanic, required a math degree,and the moon aligned with the stars' then it was an RPG.
Probably because it's easy to poke holes in every definition. The one you gave, for instance, would include many Castlevania games and Blood Dragon, as both have "experience points" and levels. While your character certainly improves, it's on a linear, predetermined path, and as much fun as Aria of Sorrow was, I wouldn't call it an RPG.

Personally, I just prefer to use the "definition" for the difference between art and porn: I know it when I see it.
Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior also progress along a linear, predetermined path. I guess RPGs didn't exist until the 90s. It's not so much the definition, it's the lack of adjectives. We have Action RPGs, we have Hack n Slash, we have Adventure, FPS, etc.. It just comes down to nerds wanting their RPG to be more specialer than those plebeian RPGs that frat boys play.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by undecaf » September 15th, 2013, 11:49 pm

I'd say what divides the RPG's from other genres is first and foremost the level of separation between the player and the character combined with amount and impact of ability progression, and then the amount of optable gameplay and storytelling variety. And this works in degrees up to a point. But that's just me.

The wonders of current day (and a bit of the past) genre blending have lead to blurred and disjointed genre definitions where almost every game someone will call an RPG with blue eyed honesty. This can of worms won't be closed as everyone will stick to their definitions and find "reasons" for it to be the case. We're up for several pages no-result genre definition arguments here.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 15th, 2013, 11:55 pm

GodComplex wrote:Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior also progress along a linear, predetermined path.
JRPGs are a different beast than western RPGs.

Look, I know my heuristic is pretty awful as a universal measuring stick, but when you strip away all the subclauses, tangental specifications, and monosylabic words, it's what every definition of RPG boils down to. You have to jump through a lot of pointless hoops to make a definition that includes Final Fantasy 1 that also excludes Aria of Sorrow (to say nothing of people who would want to include Morrowind while excluding Skyrim). It's like trying to phrase a Wish spell for a pedantic, evil DM. It's easier to just say "this is but that isn't, because I say so". Probably more intellectually honest, too.

Frankly, it's like that for most forms of art from movies to music to books. Try coming up with a universal definition of "Sci-Fi" some time and watch it get torn to shreds by people focusing on outliers and niches.

And, as the person who more or less started this nonsense because I don't consider roguelikes to really be RPGs, I want to extend my sincere apologies.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 16th, 2013, 12:07 am

Drool wrote:
GodComplex wrote:Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior also progress along a linear, predetermined path.
JRPGs are a different beast than western RPGs.

Look, I know my heuristic is pretty awful as a universal measuring stick, but when you strip away all the subclauses, tangental specifications, and monosylabic words, it's what every definition of RPG boils down to. You have to jump through a lot of pointless hoops to make a definition that includes Final Fantasy 1 that also excludes Aria of Sorrow (to say nothing of people who would want to include Morrowind while excluding Skyrim). It's like trying to phrase a Wish spell for a pedantic, evil DM. It's easier to just say "this is but that isn't, because I say so". Probably more intellectually honest, too.
It's not terrible, just very subjective. The reason I tend to stick by my simple definition is that it's pretty concrete. We have objective measurements between lvl 1 and lvl 10. But at the same time it's a very broad definition, much like sports. Baseball and basketball are pretty different games, but they are both sports. Much like eastern vs western RPGs. they're both RPGs, the devil is in the detail of what kind of RPGs. Which is why we get descriptions like 'roguelike, turn based, strategy RPG in a 3D environment.'

To me RPG just means I won't have a static character who is worth only what I can equip them with.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by SniperHF » September 16th, 2013, 12:19 am

This thread....

Image

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 16th, 2013, 12:41 am

Nah, we haven't begun to talk about how JJ Abrahms was behind the holocaust which influenced Star Wars.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 16th, 2013, 12:43 am

GodComplex wrote:But at the same time it's a very broad definition, much like sports. Baseball and basketball are pretty different games, but they are both sports.
Amusingly enough, "sports" has similar problems with fringe cases (eg: golf is while cheerleading isn't).
To me RPG just means I won't have a static character who is worth only what I can equip them with.
And, frankly, if it works for you, great. I, personally, would consider that overly broad as it scoops up a lot of games I wouldn't consider to be RPGs, eg: Call of Juarez: Gunslinger (since I don't want it to look like I'm picking on Aria of Sorrow).
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 16th, 2013, 1:58 am

Drool wrote:
GodComplex wrote:But at the same time it's a very broad definition, much like sports. Baseball and basketball are pretty different games, but they are both sports.
Amusingly enough, "sports" has similar problems with fringe cases (eg: golf is while cheerleading isn't).
To me RPG just means I won't have a static character who is worth only what I can equip them with.
And, frankly, if it works for you, great. I, personally, would consider that overly broad as it scoops up a lot of games I wouldn't consider to be RPGs, eg: Call of Juarez: Gunslinger (since I don't want it to look like I'm picking on Aria of Sorrow).
Again, it's just nerds trying to engage in mental masturbation. Sports nerds are worse than DnD players, or so the constant indulgence of fantasy football would tell me. It's just the dynamic of how broad do you want the definition. I prefer broader definitions and then start breaking down things into subsets. Sort of the Kingdom, Order, Phylum deal. Whereas it seems a lot of people want a 'how close is this to PnP tabletop game' to define a RPG.

To me it's sort of a self efficacy deal where the difference between what it is and what you want it to be controls your view.

That said, I don't consider golf a sport, it's a hobby, while cheer leading is a proper spectator sport. Now I have to go find a way to play Aria of Sorrow, Cause I fucking loved Symphony of the Night.
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1/3 says stop being overcritical
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