Update 35: We’re Still Listening

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Zombra » September 14th, 2013, 11:37 am

tomatpaburk wrote:Crouch Negative effects:
Costs AP to go into stance.
You know what? AP costs for stance changes are part of what annoy me about them. They make stances feel cumbersome. It makes sense that it would take a little time to assume a prone firing position, or clamber back to your feet, but going between standing and crouching should not have an associated cost.
snakeoil wrote:i also think that crouching should be the standard combat position and it would be really great to have your party automatically running to cover positions crouching behind it once YOU start a battle.
Um, please don't move my characters for me.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by rjshae » September 14th, 2013, 11:52 am

tomatpaburk wrote:I can think of a number things that it could add to the game, and different effects that they could have. For example that some weapons could only be fired if in the right stance, (unless you have insane amounts of str) here are some examples.
  • Crouch Positive effects:
    Slight bonues in ranged attack chance. Slightly harder for enemies to hit with ranged attacks (when outside a certain minimum range). Slight bonus to Sneak.

    Crouch Negative effects:
    Costs AP to go into stance. Movement costs slightly more AP. Slight decrease in melee attack. Slightly easier for enemies to hit with melee attacks. Slight decrease to thrown weapon range.

    Crouch extra effect:
    In order to fire grenade-launchers, one needs to be in this stance (unless you have a lot of str or special trait to negate this)
  • Prone Positive effects:
    Bigger bonus in ranged attack chance. Even harder for enemies to hit with ranged attacks (when outside a certain minimum range). Bigger bonus to Sneak.

    Prone Negative effects:
    Costs More AP to go into stance. Movement costs even more AP. Can not make melee attacks. Very easy for enemies to hit with melee attacks. Thrown weapon range is severely decreased.

    Prone extra effect:
    Must be in this stance in order to fire heavy weapons such as machine guns, or 50cal snipers (unless you have a lot of str or special trait to negate this)
These are just effects of the top of my head. As far as prone goes, I see another very vital effect it could serve. If you have a ranger in cover and he is 1 wound away from dying. Going prone behind cover would effectively hide him from sight, making it impossible to target him. Forcing enemies to either flank or rush his position. Giving you time to consolidate or send someone to heal him.
Good thoughts, although perhaps AP should only be charged when rising from a crouch or prone position. Dropping to a knee or the ground should be relatively effortless and quick.

Even if the player doesn't make much use of the prone position, other characters certainly could and should. Having opponents performing enfilading fire from a prone position can make for a challenging defensive position. Enemies on rooftops will very likely be situated in the prone position. Likewise, civilians should have the option to drop prone in order to avoid cross fire.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by shaigunjoe » September 14th, 2013, 2:03 pm

Ronin73 wrote:That music track rocks!

Then again I'm a sucker for guitar twangs for some reason :)
Haha, I feel the same way, kind of made me think of starcraft music.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 14th, 2013, 4:28 pm

Zombra wrote:
tomatpaburk wrote:Crouch Negative effects:
Costs AP to go into stance.
You know what? AP costs for stance changes are part of what annoy me about them. They make stances feel cumbersome. It makes sense that it would take a little time to assume a prone firing position, or clamber back to your feet, but going between standing and crouching should not have an associated cost.
Agreed
Zombra wrote:
snakeoil wrote:i also think that crouching should be the standard combat position and it would be really great to have your party automatically running to cover positions crouching behind it once YOU start a battle.
Um, please don't move my characters for me.
He's not, he is suggesting that in combat you don't walk along "upright" you generally try and make yourself a hard to hit target. Thus that should be the default movement. Then if you choose a different type of movement, thats cool.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Mole204 » September 14th, 2013, 6:00 pm

The music's OK. I don't get the guitar-less spaces (what, are they holding out the mic to listen for the radioactive wind?) but it's good enough for a piece of background music.
While I like hex grids for the alien look of it, I'm in the no-diagonal squares camp. This is Wasteland, and that means keyboard-manouvering squares.
I have no reason to care about cover, and hate camera-spinning and (going by WL1) splitting the party. The entire combat mechanic of WL1 was numbers-based. The only thing that cover meant was that you wern't IN combat. (oh gods the party is going to be killed by a waiter, curled and dying under some Welcome Back Kotter quotes.) Cover only means two things- 1- you'll need a TNT in your opening moves. 2- where you stand to kill off the other guys! And even those can be brought down to 'one': Stop calculating the armour points of bushes and open fire!

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Lucius » September 14th, 2013, 6:53 pm

Mole204 wrote:The music's OK. I don't get the guitar-less spaces (what, are they holding out the mic to listen for the radioactive wind?)
What does this even mean?
While I like hex grids for the alien look of it, I'm in the no-diagonal squares camp. This is Wasteland, and that means keyboard-manouvering squares.
I have no reason to care about cover, and hate camera-spinning and (going by WL1) splitting the party. The entire combat mechanic of WL1 was numbers-based. The only thing that cover meant was that you wern't IN combat. (oh gods the party is going to be killed by a waiter, curled and dying under some Welcome Back Kotter quotes.) Cover only means two things- 1- you'll need a TNT in your opening moves. 2- where you stand to kill off the other guys! And even those can be brought down to 'one': Stop calculating the armour points of bushes and open fire!
The more I see from you the more I think you may just be a little TOOOO old school for gaming.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Ronin73 » September 14th, 2013, 7:26 pm

Lucius wrote:
Mole204 wrote: While I like hex grids for the alien look of it, I'm in the no-diagonal squares camp. This is Wasteland, and that means keyboard-manouvering squares.
I have no reason to care about cover, and hate camera-spinning and (going by WL1) splitting the party. The entire combat mechanic of WL1 was numbers-based. The only thing that cover meant was that you wern't IN combat. (oh gods the party is going to be killed by a waiter, curled and dying under some Welcome Back Kotter quotes.) Cover only means two things- 1- you'll need a TNT in your opening moves. 2- where you stand to kill off the other guys! And even those can be brought down to 'one': Stop calculating the armour points of bushes and open fire!
The more I see from you the more I think you may just be a little TOOOO old school for gaming.
Yeah, it's not quite Krellen old school, but it's certainly in the same ballpark. As much as I love Wasteland, a lot of that stuff falls into the outdated basket for me.
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by SDF121 » September 14th, 2013, 7:53 pm

Yuri wrote:
If there is going to be a cover system in Wasteland 2, I would much rather have a more streamlined system in place than one which will only slow down the pace of combat.
It is in the game and it is streamlined. Did you not watched last video?
I actually meant to talk about the inclusion of stances within the context of the existing cover system. I edited my post to better reflect that. I was just thinking about the way stances work in Company of Heroes and how they're context sensitive within the cover system and accidentally wrote cover system instead of stances which was what I was actually thinking.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 14th, 2013, 9:23 pm

Ronin73 wrote:
Lucius wrote:
Mole204 wrote: While I like hex grids for the alien look of it, I'm in the no-diagonal squares camp. This is Wasteland, and that means keyboard-manouvering squares.
I have no reason to care about cover, and hate camera-spinning and (going by WL1) splitting the party. The entire combat mechanic of WL1 was numbers-based. The only thing that cover meant was that you wern't IN combat. (oh gods the party is going to be killed by a waiter, curled and dying under some Welcome Back Kotter quotes.) Cover only means two things- 1- you'll need a TNT in your opening moves. 2- where you stand to kill off the other guys! And even those can be brought down to 'one': Stop calculating the armour points of bushes and open fire!
The more I see from you the more I think you may just be a little TOOOO old school for gaming.
Yeah, it's not quite Krellen old school, but it's certainly in the same ballpark. As much as I love Wasteland, a lot of that stuff falls into the outdated basket for me.
He is a troll, he targets specific areas, and topics that he knows will inflame debate.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Yuri » September 14th, 2013, 9:46 pm

Clawdius wrote:I am sure they'll make the right choice in the end,
They have already done it. Rangers/NPC do crouch when they are behind low covers. Sneak animation, if sneak is even in game, will probably be different from usual walk. Other then that cost is hardly justified.
On the other hand... They already have behind cover crouch animation. Why not just use it? Is there some problem? Or am I mistaken about definition of the word "crouch"?
Woolfe wrote:He is a troll, he targets specific areas, and topics that he knows will inflame debate.
That's why I ignore him all over the place and started to call non adequate people "Moles" 8-)
Also, do you really get what he's trying to say? I mean, I'm not so good at writing or speaking, but I do understand english perfectly fine, and I have trouble understanding what the hell do he wants to say most of the time.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Mole204 » September 14th, 2013, 10:01 pm

Lucius wrote:The music's OK. I don't get the guitar-less spaces (what, are they holding out the mic to listen for the radioactive wind?)
What does this even mean?
Go back and listen to it again. There's a whole lot of empty in the song track. It's not filled with much of anything. Odd sounding pitches and sub-wind drifts. Nothing that can be found in nature, but it's like someone took all the suspense out of Suspensful Movie Music and just left the microphone running while they fiddled with the depth dials on the Dolby board. Was there to be another layer with additional instruments?
While I like hex grids for the alien look of it, I'm in the no-diagonal squares camp. This is Wasteland, and that means keyboard-manouvering squares. !
The more I see from you the more I think you may just be a little TOOOO old school for gaming.[/quote]
I can't think of a single reason that you might be wrong, only reasons that you might be right.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 14th, 2013, 10:13 pm

In what world is Nethack an RPG?
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Mole204 » September 14th, 2013, 10:18 pm

Drool wrote:In what world is Nethack an RPG?
The world of 1988, apparently.
Computer games that rely on computer mice are just too fancy about it. We're only given one right arm, y'know.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Drool » September 14th, 2013, 10:21 pm

Even in 1988 I wouldn't call a Roguelike an RPG.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by ffordesoon » September 14th, 2013, 10:42 pm

Oh, God.

If we start debating the definition of the term "RPG," I'm gonna get a headache in anticipation of the headache I'm gonna get from actually reading the posts.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dflatline » September 15th, 2013, 1:35 am

Yuri wrote: Also, do you really get what he's trying to say? I mean, I'm not so good at writing or speaking, but I do understand english perfectly fine, and I have trouble understanding what the hell do he wants to say most of the time.
No you're right he does write all weird.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Woolfe » September 15th, 2013, 2:12 am

Yuri wrote:
Woolfe wrote:He is a troll, he targets specific areas, and topics that he knows will inflame debate.
That's why I ignore him all over the place and started to call non adequate people "Moles" 8-)
Also, do you really get what he's trying to say? I mean, I'm not so good at writing or speaking, but I do understand english perfectly fine, and I have trouble understanding what the hell do he wants to say most of the time.
I always like to give the benefit of the doubt.
Drool wrote:In what world is Nethack an RPG?
I'd classify it as an RPG... why wouldn't it be an RPG?
ffordesoon wrote:Oh, God.

If we start debating the definition of the term "RPG," I'm gonna get a headache in anticipation of the headache I'm gonna get from actually reading the posts.
So is that Role playing or Roll playing ;) :lol:
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Lucius » September 15th, 2013, 7:39 am

Personally, I have a pretty loose definition of RPG. To be an RPG a game must have character progression; where character gets more powerful by leveling up in some way. There is inventory management and better equipment as your character progresses. Lastly, some amount of exploration.

Lots of people add C&C and dialog choices to the list but I dont think that is necessary to be labeled an RPG. To me, Skyrim is an RPG. Based on Wikipedia, I'd call nethack an RPG as well.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Yuri » September 15th, 2013, 7:03 pm

Lucius wrote:Personally, I have a pretty loose definition of RPG. To be an RPG a game must have character progression; where character gets more powerful by leveling up in some way. There is inventory management and better equipment as your character progresses. Lastly, some amount of exploration.
Lots of people add C&C and dialog choices to the list but I dont think that is necessary to be labeled an RPG. To me, Skyrim is an RPG. Based on Wikipedia, I'd call nethack an RPG as well.
I'd say leveling up is unnecessary. It has nothing to do with role playing. It's here just because first ones had it. Just like those elves in fantasy. Everyone feels obligated to stick this shit in. C&C on the other hand is important. Because your actions only matter when you get a different reaction to them. And your actions are THE act of role playing. If your action only goes as far as killing and looting shit then it is crappy RPG.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Lucius » September 15th, 2013, 7:16 pm

Yuri wrote:I'd say leveling up is unnecessary.
Without it though, that opens the door to games like Assassin's Creed, Batman, Dishonored and Bioshock being called RPG's, which they are not.
C&C on the other hand is important. Because your actions only matter when you get a different reaction to them. And your actions are THE act of role playing. If your action only goes as far as killing and looting shit then it is crappy RPG.
Pretty no much no game in the past 10 or more years have even attempted to have a decent C&C system. By that logic, RPGs are completely dead and JRPGs were never RPGs, such as Dragon Warrrior(Quest) and Final Fantasy.

Hell by that logic Wasteland wasn't an RPG either or a really "crappy" one.

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