Update 35: We’re Still Listening

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Son of Max
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Son of Max » October 1st, 2013, 2:50 pm

Drool wrote:You do realise that was a demo, right?
Drool, just...stop. You don't even have to go any further than that.

It's patently obvious even to the casual observer that Hiver and some of the others around here cannot distinguish between a demo and a finished product.

That's what make every update thread an incredulous mess; people see a demo, hate the demo, think it's the finished product, proceed to proclaim Wasteland 2 as a failure.

Just...save your breath. They either don't know what a demo is or they do and just wanna bitch about every little thing that isn't exactly how they want it or doesn't live up to their expectations (despite still being in pre-beta development).
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Jenner » October 1st, 2013, 3:51 pm

Such anger and drama around here! Has it always been like this? :lol:

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Grohal » October 1st, 2013, 4:02 pm

Jenner wrote:Such anger and drama around here! Has it always been like this? :lol:
*grins and nods* :mrgreen:
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Zombra » October 1st, 2013, 4:02 pm

Brother None wrote:
Hiver wrote:Which should mean that the square grid was there from the start... only.... you didnt think it would be good to show the grid to the players, yes?
I didn't even remotely say or imply anything like that. Are you ironically trying to prove people's point about devs posting on forums and people intentionally misreading their posts?
I think he just wants to know how blatantly disrespectful he can be to you guys without getting banned. I've been wondering the same thing for a while :lol:
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Brother None » October 1st, 2013, 4:32 pm

Zombra wrote:I think he just wants to know how blatantly disrespectful he can be to you guys without getting banned. I've been wondering the same thing for a while :lol:
Being disrespectful to us is not really a ban-worthy offense, though outright lying and twisting words is pushing it a little. It is possible this board needs a little more moderation than I ideally want to give it, it's just a shame when so many people are great but there's just a handful pissing all over every single update thread and that makes them degenerate so hard. I loved all the indepth feedback to the video but obsessively hammering on the same point ("inXile is selling out to the mainstream!") over and over is not really constructive.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dflatline » October 1st, 2013, 5:27 pm

He'd just go post elsewhere some shit about inXile CENSORING DISSENT FOR THEIR CORPORATE MAINSTREAM MASTERS if you so much as told him to shut up.

Then slap his girlfriend hard

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Zombra » October 1st, 2013, 5:28 pm

Yeah. Note that I meant no disrespect to your mod style ... if you're happy, who am I to complain? For myself, I just put the real dinks on ignore and then I only have to deal with them when my friends reply to them, and that usually means there's something worth discussing after all. Everyone's happy.

But yeah, where I come from, it's ban first. If they want to prove they can play nice, they can send in an appeal. I'm amazed at what some folk get away with here ... but it's the kind of amazement that makes me laugh. :lol: Keep up the good work!
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Son of Max » October 1st, 2013, 7:07 pm

Jenner wrote:Such anger and drama around here! Has it always been like this? :lol:
Actually... :lol:

As bad as this may seem, the Gay Characters thread was actually more ridiculous than the average update thread has become.

That and the Single Character vs. Team of Characters war that was spread from one corner of this forum to the other, even to the point of invading threads that had nothing to do with character/party creation.

This place is the Wasteland of forums! 8-)
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by sparkee666 » October 1st, 2013, 9:48 pm

devs not responding enough seems like an off complaint Brother None has been very active on this forum and he's been keeping us informed on alot of things. Why would the devs have to post as much when the job is getting done quite well by Brother None.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by ffordesoon » October 2nd, 2013, 1:06 am

sparkee666 wrote:devs not responding enough seems like an off complaint Brother None has been very active on this forum and he's been keeping us informed on alot of things. Why would the devs have to post as much when the job is getting done quite well by Brother None.
That was a reason I forgot! Thanks, BroNone!
Zombra wrote:Yeah. Note that I meant no disrespect to your mod style ... if you're happy, who am I to complain? For myself, I just put the real dinks on ignore and then I only have to deal with them when my friends reply to them, and that usually means there's something worth discussing after all. Everyone's happy.

But yeah, where I come from, it's ban first. If they want to prove they can play nice, they can send in an appeal. I'm amazed at what some folk get away with here ... but it's the kind of amazement that makes me laugh. :lol: Keep up the good work!
I never put anyone on ignore. It gets me into lots of fights, but I get annoyed that I'm not seeing the Whole Picture otherwise.

As for Hiver, I just tune him out at this point. ;)
dflatline wrote:He'd just go post elsewhere some shit about inXile CENSORING DISSENT FOR THEIR CORPORATE MAINSTREAM MASTERS if you so much as told him to shut up.

Then slap his girlfriend hard
:lol:
Son of Max wrote:It's patently obvious even to the casual observer that Hiver and some of the others around here cannot distinguish between a demo and a finished product.
Nah, I think Hiver just really wants the game to be terrible so he can be proven right. He's declared it a failure of some sort at least four distinct times. My favorite was when he wrote reams of screeching prose about the inventory system based on a couple of screenshots and the way it was described to him by others, and then reluctantly admitted it wasn't that bad when he actually watched the thing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just read everything he writes in a William Alexander voice. You'll never stop giggling.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dorkboy » October 2nd, 2013, 2:37 am

@Drool & Son of Max
i vaguely recall one of the game review sites making a point of stating that the demo'ed area was actually a playable level from the game rather than just a demo built solely for the demo events. can't recall which article, but here's basically the same gist straight from the horse's mouth:
Kickstarter Update #34 wrote:[...]This area was not built purely for demoing purposes and it is a straight video capture. While the level will be further polished and improved (we’re missing a bunch of sounds among other things), it gives you a sense of the final game flow.[...]
now, even if the linearity is not representative of all the levels/the final game, getting unambiguous feedback on it (albeit in the form of rainbow-coloured rants of blindly irate geek mayhem) before it is too late to do anything about it is probably not a bad idea. i don't think inxile will tune their level design towards more linearity as a result...
(i could be wrong, of course - maybe they just go "Aw fuckit.." and decide to make another android bard's tale? :lol: )

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by snakeoil » October 2nd, 2013, 4:37 am

gals, i cant believe you are still bitching around about the same nonsense over and over. you know why this is happening? because we really get too little input by brother none or the inxile staff. when the lions are not constantly fed they will eat each other. thats whats happening here. i dont think its a bad thing to criticise a DEMO, its not wrong to express concern but riding the same train over and over, is just stupid and boring. if you keep on discussing with some people here it will just consume your precious time and fighting with annoying, stubborn and trolling people is no fight worth to be picked. instead of the common idea that most people are stupid, i think most are smart, smart but bored. many of you guys are smart but bored.
as a community of W2 we have a common goal, so we should stand as one and support inxile to craft a good game. critical voices are very important in achieving it. crying around, annoying people, speaking LOUD or writing pages full of worthlessness is leading nowhere though. i understand that many of you think they have the ultimate idea about how things should look and feel but if you do not find a positive majority, just cut it. the common idea of the capitalistic society of 2013 is that you can get anything if you are just persistant enough. BULLSHIT i say, you are annoying everyone, thats the truth. get yourself together, be constructive or keep on existing as a lowlife subhuman, incompetent to max out the nature given abilities that each of us have.

communication is the key, and getting an update once a month or every 2 weeks is just not enough to keep a good flow in this community.

i really cant see how inxile can deliver a good game for us, if they feel bad about their own fanbase. if we work together and stop bitching on each other, creatively shaping a game all of us feel good about, thats how we can get the best result.
if everything you see from inxile is shit in your eyes, maybe Wasteland 2 is not the right game for you, you wasted your money and this kickstarter was a fault. dont look back in anger, move forward to the next experience. and waste your hard earned money on the next crap that comes around.
Last edited by snakeoil on October 2nd, 2013, 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Gizmo » October 2nd, 2013, 7:12 am

I'm happy with the game as shown; and I expect [purely as a bonus] further improvements as development progresses.

(I just wish that the sat Dish, turret, and Scorpitron in the game were my designs ~but it's my own fault for not getting around to submitting my work to the Unity store. :oops: )

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by meganothing » October 2nd, 2013, 9:02 am

snakeoil wrote: i understand that many of you think they have the ultimate idea about how things should look and feel but if you do not find a positive majority, just cut it. the common idea of the capitalistic society of 2013 is that you can get anything if you are just persistant enough. BULLSHIT i say, you are annoying everyone, thats the truth
Well said. And that brings me to the ultimate idea for this forum ;-). If we had a way to upvote/(downvote) posts it would be much easier to find a positive majority or find out that there isn't one.

For the current traffic this is surely not necessary, but in beta, after release or while planning expansions/WL3 it would save time for posters and inXile alike.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Gizmo » October 2nd, 2013, 9:43 am

meganothing wrote:Well said. And that brings me to the ultimate idea for this forum ;-). If we had a way to upvote/(downvote) posts it would be much easier to find a positive majority or find out that there isn't one.
What would they do with the up-voted or down-voted rating on posts? Drop them? That's a game-able/exploitable feature that serves as its own provocation and bait.

Youtube is about to roll out an insidious tactic of blind-sandboxing posters ~where they can see their posts, but no one else can. This is to curtail the rapid/repeated re-registring for new identities to avoid the block... most won't realize they are not being seen ~one day they just stop getting noticed. This is a very slippery-slope tactic with internet-wide consequences. Another alternative to be employed [equally vile], is that of verified real-world identification in order to post one's thoughts ~so they can go on record and be tracked; and show up 35 years later when the political system has drastically shifted... or (if we're lucky) merely getting ostracized, or reprimanded or fired at work for once having a displeasing opinion on something; (or perhaps expressing any opinion; simply having one being the offense).

I much prefer having the nuisance posts; knowing they at least have the fair chance to be heard ~like everyone else. What comes of a Digg-like bubble-sorted list of popular posts is not something I'm likely to have any interest in reading; just a bunch of like-minded posters patting each other on the back all day, and colluding to down-vote any that attract their ire.

No thanks.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by SniperHF » October 2nd, 2013, 12:20 pm

Brother None wrote: It is possible this board needs a little more moderation than I ideally want to give it,
I wouldn't worry about it so long as the board stays around its current size. If activity explodes during the beta that might have to happen.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by meganothing » October 2nd, 2013, 2:04 pm

Gizmo wrote:
meganothing wrote:Well said. And that brings me to the ultimate idea for this forum ;-). If we had a way to upvote/(downvote) posts it would be much easier to find a positive majority or find out that there isn't one.
What would they do with the up-voted or down-voted rating on posts? Drop them? That's a game-able/exploitable feature that serves as its own provocation and bait.

Youtube ...

I much prefer having the nuisance posts; knowing they at least have the fair chance to be heard ~like everyone else. What comes of a Digg-like bubble-sorted list of popular posts is not something I'm likely to have any interest in reading; just a bunch of like-minded posters patting each other on the back all day, and colluding to down-vote any that attract their ire.
You are reading intentions into my idea that aren't there. I don't want this forum to be censored. I want an easy method to say "I like that idea" or "I don't like that idea" (which could be done by having a dislike button or simply liking the dissent post).

Youtube, what an example! How about looking at obsidians forum or desura or gog. Most forums I know have some form of this and only high-volume sites like slashdot or reddit use it to hide low-rated posts. A digg-like system is outright impossible on a forum where posts have to be in chronological order.

In forums where reasonable people are in a comfortable majority exploitation is very difficult to achieve. And mostly not worth the effort to cheat as the numbers are not viewed as that important.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Son of Max » October 2nd, 2013, 6:33 pm

dorkboy wrote:@Drool & Son of Max
i vaguely recall one of the game review sites making a point of stating that the demo'ed area was actually a playable level from the game rather than just a demo built solely for the demo events. can't recall which article, but here's basically the same gist straight from the horse's mouth:
Kickstarter Update #34 wrote:[...]This area was not built purely for demoing purposes and it is a straight video capture. While the level will be further polished and improved (we’re missing a bunch of sounds among other things), it gives you a sense of the final game flow.[...]
now, even if the linearity is not representative of all the levels/the final game, getting unambiguous feedback on it (albeit in the form of rainbow-coloured rants of blindly irate geek mayhem) before it is too late to do anything about it is probably not a bad idea. i don't think inxile will tune their level design towards more linearity as a result...
(i could be wrong, of course - maybe they just go "Aw fuckit.." and decide to make another android bard's tale? :lol: )

---

for the record, i would like for all my posts to be read in the voice of Frank Zappa imitating Bob Dylan. Thanks.
Purpose built as a demo or not, it's still a demo and I refuse to view it as anything else.

It's a pre-beta shot of what gameplay looks like, not the finished product. Even with what they said in the previous update in mind, I was pretty sure what we were being shown was a demo and not what to expect as the finished product.

If I thought for a minute that the minds working on this game would throw something that pabulum on a disk and call it a game, I'd go apeshit myself.

But I've played way too many games produced by Brian Fargo to think that anything that straight forward or linear or anything like that would be something he'd put his name on. Especially considering how long the guy's been waiting to make this specific game. 20 plus years is a long time, and nobody who's been waiting that long to make something is going to do any less than their best.

I could see where a twenty year old property could get scooped up by a big publisher, tossed to a bunch of kids who never played the original and then throw together a pile of garbage, but I simply cannot see the people who created a property doing that. It means something to them. It'd be like George Lucas taking Star Wars, twenty years after the original was released and...okay, bad example, but you get what I mean. :lol:
ffordesoon wrote:
Nah, I think Hiver just really wants the game to be terrible so he can be proven right. He's declared it a failure of some sort at least four distinct times. My favorite was when he wrote reams of screeching prose about the inventory system based on a couple of screenshots and the way it was described to him by others, and then reluctantly admitted it wasn't that bad when he actually watched the thing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just read everything he writes in a William Alexander voice. You'll never stop giggling.
I don't get that mindset. It seems counterproductive, especially on a feedback forum.

I see the update demo and I think 'Okay then. They've got X, Y and Z working, now they just need to put some polish on X and Y, tweak Z a little and then do the finishes on A, B and C.'

I can't for the life of me understand people who see the same stuff I saw and immediately think 'IT'S CRAP! BUILT OF FAIL! WHAAAAAA! THIS IS A CATASTROPHE! YOU SUCK, INXILE!!!!eleventy.'

Demo, as in demonstration. NOT the final product.

How hard is that to understand? (Unless you're a terminal pessimist who believes everything sucks just by existing.) :?

There's a distinction between constructive criticism, criticism and flat out senseless ranting.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Blacky » October 2nd, 2013, 6:54 pm

Son of Max wrote:It's a pre-beta shot of what gameplay looks like, not the finished product.
Also known as alpha version.
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If things make sense in a real-world sense, I don’t think people give too much flak for it not being game-y enough, I think keeping the world sense together is the most important thing we can be doing.—Brian Fargo

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Thrin » October 2nd, 2013, 11:02 pm

Son of Max wrote: Purpose built as a demo or not, it's still a demo and I refuse to view it as anything else.

It's a pre-beta shot of what gameplay looks like, not the finished product. Even with what they said in the previous update in mind, I was pretty sure what we were being shown was a demo and not what to expect as the finished product.

If I thought for a minute that the minds working on this game would throw something that pabulum on a disk and call it a game, I'd go apeshit myself.
Chances are what we saw in the demo is what we'll get in the game with minor tweaks. That map is that map. Given where the game is / was in development that level is probably 'set' and only the little things (maybe grammar, some dialogue tweaks, the UI continues to iterate, and maybe some additional particle type effects) will be changed.

Given how the map was laid out I really don't get all the comments about linearity. It was clear to me that a player could elect to go in one direction or another direction based on their own decision. There was no set path on that map. I am good with what I saw in terms of decisions being made at a map level. There were areas to go into and different ways to complete things that were on the map.

But, don't be expecting major changes from what we've seen and what we'll be getting. Polish usually refers to the small things. The big things are done. They might clean up some of the graphics (in that they may put in higher quality textures but, then again, they may not) and toy a little with the scripts but what we saw is, for all intents and purposes, the game.

Given that, I wouldn't spend so long going over every little thing that was in the demo. I have a feeling that some people have watched the demo clip multiple times over. And, frankly, if you watch anything multiple times over in a row you are going to start spotting all the little inconsistencies. As part of the overall package that map was just one little piece of it. I'd like to suggest for people to stop fixating but we're all hoping to be fans and that is what we do when there is a limited amount of information and exposure to the product.

Personally, I would have preferred to have seen far more communication out of inXile than what we've had but I can understand the choice to go the route that they've gone. Basically, this game is being developed "old school" with a few minor updates to the cycle to acknowledge modern online social interactions. A dedicated resource to interface between the community and the dev team on a limited budget is really hard to justify. From my perspective given how communication operates I would have given the go ahead for such a thing. But, from an old school we just develop games and let's get to it mindset I totally see how it could be seen as: we either get a person who does social media all day or we get someone who works directly on the game and gets us to the finish line faster.

Whatever, what's done is done and let's just enjoy the journey of getting to the release.

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