Update 35: We’re Still Listening

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Clawdius
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Clawdius » September 13th, 2013, 1:21 am

Ronin73 wrote:That music track rocks!

Then again I'm a sucker for guitar twangs for some reason :)
As someone who is actually not a fan of twang, I can say that I found the twang to be within acceptable levels. I think the track strikes the perfect balance to capture the mood of Wasteland. Between Kenshi and Wasteland 2 I'll have a couple of soundtracks I enjoy well enough to not mute immediately.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by undecaf » September 13th, 2013, 1:44 am

So hexes are out of the table for good, I guess. Shame. I was such a happy person after the Ag. Center video.

The interfaces being under construction is a good thing (hopefully that also concerns the awful inventory and barter windows) and generally the update manages to say the "right" things. So, good... I guess.

Stances I don't particularly care about; even if it would be preferable to at least have crouching.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 13th, 2013, 1:55 am

undecaf wrote:So hexes are out of the table for good, I guess. Shame. I was such a happy person after the Ag. Center video.
Yeah, that was a bit of a tease with the hexes. But there is always WL3, where they can hopefully design with that in mind. Honestly I'm not to broken up about the squares, I like what they're doing with them with the whole color coding thing.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by undecaf » September 13th, 2013, 2:25 am

GodComplex wrote:
undecaf wrote:So hexes are out of the table for good, I guess. Shame. I was such a happy person after the Ag. Center video.
Yeah, that was a bit of a tease with the hexes. But there is always WL3, where they can hopefully design with that in mind. Honestly I'm not to broken up about the squares, I like what they're doing with them with the whole color coding thing.
Yeah. It's not a do or die situation... But nonetheless. Always been more comfortable with hexes than squares or vectors.

The distance modifiers with colour codes is indeed a good thing. I still hope they'd consider close proximity penalties for all longarms (in different degrees based on the weapontype) and not just the sniper weapons (if I haven't missed anything and that's in already). Such could potentially add a nice layer of tactical depth, especially with stances being out.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Arsene-Lupin » September 13th, 2013, 2:26 am

Hm... not sure I like the grid-based gameworld. Not because I have anything against grids opposed to hexes (after all, I love me some Disgaea) but because it seems like all of the isometric kickstarter games use square-grids with similar looking visual cues for movement. And then, of course, there's XCOM.

I'd really appreciate it if the grid could be hidden, so that--if invisible--the player could be completely unaware of its presence.

Honestly, the absolute most impressive turn-based tactical strategy game system I've ever seen, I've really only ever seen once--in the PS2 game "Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits."

Everything used a very natural radial system. Movement radius were effected by terrain, characters took different amounts of damage based upon from which radial direction attacks came, and attacks themselves were based on the radial across both axes--some attacks had wide areas of effect, others long and narrow--so you could strike two enemies side-by-side with an axe, or cut throught two enemies one in front of the other with an arrow.

It really was a great system, a shame I haven't seen it (ever) implemented elsewhere.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Grohal » September 13th, 2013, 3:18 am

I can live with squares and considering we had no stances in Fallout 1/2, I guess I can live without them here, too. But of course the game would be way more awesome if it had stances, because the times of fighting ranged combat upright standing should be gone for good since World War 1. :mrgreen:

I'm waiting exited for the next "build" of the Interface and see what they come up to with. :)

The musicpiece, as always, is flawless. :D
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by tomatpaburk » September 13th, 2013, 3:46 am

In regards to the stance part. I totally get the whole reasoning behind it, its a real time consumer for the animators to implement. But.....

Am I wrong in assuming that crouch animations are already scheduled in, since both Rangers and NPC's crouch down slightly when they get into cover?

Doesn't that already include "most" of the animation that we are talking about. (Since right now, the models stand up to fire then sit back down again. The only thing I suppose is missing would be the crouch attack animations?)

If you decide to not implement stances, I assume that models in cover wont stand up in order to do skill tests, take hits or reload?

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Darkzone » September 13th, 2013, 5:20 am

Grohal wrote:I can live with squares and considering we had no stances in Fallout 1/2, I guess I can live without them here, too. But of course the game would be way more awesome if it had stances, because the times of fighting ranged combat upright standing should be gone for good since World War 1.
Even earlier. This was ended with the invention of the gatling gun. So right at the end of the american civil war.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Jukkahvi » September 13th, 2013, 6:28 am

Good update.

You got the ball. Now it's up to you, how hard you want to work with it.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by snakeoil » September 13th, 2013, 6:40 am

thx bro for cutting the ignore/bashing bullshit in U34 discussion.
guys, communication is everything, you guys at inxile just trust your friends out here on the perimeter. we are all in the same boat. (even though ford wants his own one) i liked the way you explained the difficulties with the floaty look, but still hope that you will add footprints on the ground or any other reactivity (dust maybe).
concerning the grid system, why dont you combine squares and hexes? squares for doors and covers and hexes in between. anyway its the result of using the AP system, flawed by design... , relax just bein cheeky but honest.

leave out prone.

actually prone only makes sense for the sniperrifleguy just add it for him if you need to, 2 stances are better than 3. look at BC2 vs BF3 i know these are FPS but still, prone is unnecessary. without prone you can do 140 other animations like diffrent movement animations or drunk pub behaviour, stuff thats 100% more important and fun than wormlike proning in the dirt.
the mark morgan track is nice radiated red dead redemption, good stuff. but dont forget ambient sounds, they are important too, making a world feel alive.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by GodComplex » September 13th, 2013, 7:23 am

Gonna have to agree with snakeoil, you can leave out the prone. I'm not sure if the extra tactical feel it gives would be worth it, unless you're planning on a hour long open field base assault or something.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Darkzone » September 13th, 2013, 7:38 am

snakeoil wrote:leave out prone.

actually prone only makes sense for the sniperrifleguy just add it for him if you need to, 2 stances are better than 3. look at BC2 vs BF3 i know these are FPS but still, prone is unnecessary. without prone you can do 140 other animations like diffrent movement animations or drunk pub behaviour, stuff thats 100% more important and fun than wormlike proning in the dirt.
the mark morgan track is nice radiated red dead redemption, good stuff. but dont forget ambient sounds, they are important too, making a world feel alive.
snakeoil is right in a way, the prone position is for melee useless (heel biters), and because of the short fire distances they would look in a way silly in certain situations like if the enemy is nearly touching you, also they would make the most load of the additional work. The prone position is only a very good add to the sniper.
I am rowing back on this idea, should have thought more through, before proposing it or complaining about it.
But crouching on the other hand still stands and alone should do much less work.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by meganothing » September 13th, 2013, 8:51 am

Stances:
I don't care for stances. If they are in, you have to use them every time, so no clever tactics, just one more keyboard or mouse click you have to do, nearly every time in combat, for all your rangers.

With stances you can build lets say 40 different looking characters models into the game (each with all stances). So character models have to be reused again and again. Without stances maybe 60 or 70 models can be build in the same time. Much more diversity. I prefer diversity to boring repetitious mouse clicks.

Remember that if you have a prone stance, then you also need an attack movement for a melee attack against a prone person, otherwise it will look as if something wants to prod the empty air above the sniper with his knife. Even shooting from a close distance would look odd if the shooter doesn't shoot downwards! Crouching is bad, but Prone is really really evil. Say No To Prone. Vote For Upstanding People ;-)


1.5:
1.5 is used for diagonal movement as this is easy to calculate by the player looking at the grid. Within a short time of using it he will know with one glance where he (and the melee enemy!!) can move with x AP. If you have a grid and can't do that, why have a grid at all?

So yes, 1.5 makes more sense here than 1.4

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Hertzila » September 13th, 2013, 9:39 am

Great update. Really loved the included music!

On stances: While not that big of a deal, can my guys at least take cover behind a low wall? Especially for sneaking, having some way to hide behind low objects is rather crucial for success. If my guys hide behind them anyway, is crouch such a big job afterwards? I understand if it is, I'd just hope it isn't.
No to prone: Agreed. On the distances the game is played, prone is a bit too little gain for the resources used.

The 1.5 vs. sqr(2) issue sounds much more like a playtest issue than anything else. On one hand easy mental calculations, on the other accurate distance measurement and movement patterns. File that away for testing/beta, I say.
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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Gillsing » September 13th, 2013, 10:03 am

Whether it's 1.5 or 1.414 I'm pretty sure that it will be the computer's job to tell me how many APs it'll cost to move to a given position. As such, it seems better to go with the more accurate option, since the computer is really, really good at calculations, and could even show a walk radius similar to the attack radius.

One question though: Will it be possible to walk diagonally around a corner, or would that corner act as an obstacle and force a character to walk two squares (one forward, then left/right)?

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by john irwin finster » September 13th, 2013, 11:03 am

Good update. My thoughts:

Graphics/animation: from the beginning this game emphasized content over style, and I'm frankly amazed that it looks as good as it does. There are a few glitches that need addressing, I'm confident they will be. The art style, that's personal preference- personally, I think it looks beautiful.

Grid system: a square grid system (with a diagonal) is better than a hex grid, plus it's more natural. I think in terms of a cartesian coordinate system, I'm not a honeybee.

Crouching/prone: a plus, but I understand the technical reasons for not including them. I would suggest just adding in the crouching position (having both doesn't really add anything), reusing the animations that exist from the waist up, tweak if necessary.

Linearity/ease of gameplay: the gameplay shown did seem simple, but that's the nature of a demo, and I expect the game gets harder as you go further. Also, it might not be so obvious when actually playing that we should pay off the guards (they might just take your money and shoot you), or we should use animal whispering to use a goat to blow up a land mine (I thought that was pretty hilarious). Little things like that really make a game fun.

Overall, I think the game looks great. I think back to the original wasteland, and I didn't care about the 8-bit graphics or the text-based combat system. I remember the huge open world, the compelling story, the individual characters, solving puzzles, slogging through fights. Give us an experience like that, and we'll remember it 25 years from now. Or at least until wasteland 3 comes out (I hope!)

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by tomatpaburk » September 13th, 2013, 11:04 am

meganothing wrote: I don't care for stances. If they are in, you have to use them every time, so no clever tactics, just one more keyboard or mouse click you have to do, nearly every time in combat, for all your rangers.
That would completely depend on what mechanics go along with the stances, and what types of positive/negative effects they have. So I cant say I agree with that.
meganothing wrote:With stances you can build lets say 40 different looking characters models into the game (each with all stances). So character models have to be reused again and again. Without stances maybe 60 or 70 models can be build in the same time. Much more diversity. I prefer diversity to boring repetitious mouse clicks.


This sounds very hypothetical, must say that I sort of doubt that the models will make much difference to the workload, that would completely depend on how they create the models and how they create the animations based on these models.

If most NPC's consists with a handful of human "models" with different "skin" textures on them, this would not make a difference to the time needed to make the animations. Based in the videos released so far, models look pretty much the same only with different outfits/skins. I bet that there will be a rather small number of set physical body types that humans will use, (combinations of: gender, strength, height and weight. The rest will be cosmetic textures and armor). I strongly doubt that we are talking about 60-70 different types of human models that need to get the same animations created separately. The real time consumer would rather be weapon types and damage types and how they effect the different stances.
meganothing wrote:Remember that if you have a prone stance, then you also need an attack movement for a melee attack against a prone person, otherwise it will look as if something wants to prod the empty air above the sniper with his knife. Even shooting from a close distance would look odd if the shooter doesn't shoot downwards! Crouching is bad, but Prone is really really evil. Say No To Prone. Vote For Upstanding People ;-)
To me that is a very minor problem, along the lines that melee attacks probably wont directly interface with their targets (by that I mean that even if a person is hit in melee, I doubt we will "see" the weapon make a solid impact, we will rather see a swing and see a person take a "hit" animation. Along the lines of previous rpgs like Fallout and Baldur's Gate)

Cant say that I found that animations of attacking prone people in Fallout Tactics the least bit irritating.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by dflatline » September 13th, 2013, 11:16 am

They'll be doing rig/skeletal animation, which means they're gonna have about a handful of animations they can apply to a much larger amount of meshes

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by john irwin finster » September 13th, 2013, 11:23 am

meganothing wrote:Stances:
I don't care for stances. If they are in, you have to use them every time, so no clever tactics, just one more keyboard or mouse click you have to do, nearly every time in combat, for all your rangers.
I think stances can make things more interesting. If you have a tank running in taking all the fire, a sniper lying in the grass taking pot shots, a wounded ranger crouching behind a rock, that's more interesting than having all three standing around.

However, I do strongly agree with what you said. I think if the user changes stance, it should cost action points, and if they're in a less mobile position, they should have less action points that turn. If they're standing, they should be easier to hit by ranged, harder to hit by melee, and conversely crouching they should be easier to hit with melee, harder to hit with ranged. This would add some tactical tradeoffs, otherwise yeah, crouching/prone is just a cheap cheat, and doesn't add anything.

Maybe melee characters should automatically be standing, ranged automatically fall to crouch, so we don't need to worry about the button push. Maybe we can just assume ranged and melee characters to be in those positions with their positive and negative effects without animating them in? If stances didn't make it in game, I wouldn't be horribly disappointed. Definitely don't need all three stances.
Last edited by john irwin finster on September 13th, 2013, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Update 35: We’re Still Listening

Post by Zombra » September 13th, 2013, 1:20 pm

So this thread is for feedback on the feedback on the feedback? Woah. :shock:

----------------
Ranger1 wrote:I don't suppose you could add stance in cosmetically without putting in additional mechanics; for instance when a sniper is on high ground rather than the stock animation? I think most of us just want it to look a little cooler.
I agree with this guy. One thing I really liked about XCOM was watching my guys crouch down into cover without me having to issue any kind of command. Because why wouldn't they crouch? I guess the way JA did it was fine, but the extra mechanics are really unnecessary to fun. (One zebra's opinion.) I really don't want to go back to clicking the crouch button every time I end a move, and clicking the stand up button every time I want to change position, and having to save extra AP and think about it when my Rangers should just be doing it naturally.

Maybe certain weapons like sniper rifles and rocket launchers just have the guy drop to one knee as the default firing animation, and he'll stay kneeling until he moves again. That way your sniper won't look like such a dork, standing tall and proud and a sitting duck even on high ground. On low ground it wouldn't look bad either. It's not supposed to be a weapon you use when you want to be maneuverable, and I'm sure its higher AP cost will reflect this.

(And maybe these "auto-crouch" weapons would provide a slight mechanical defensive bonus at range.)

Who knows, maybe crouching should just be the default position for firing any non-melee weapon.

--------------

Glad to see that characters will move in a straight line rather than zig zagging on a grid, even if the grid underlies the gameplay. That'll be really nice visually, especially since the Rangers already move that way out of combat.

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Gillsing wrote:One question though: Will it be possible to walk diagonally around a corner, or would that corner act as an obstacle and force a character to walk two squares (one forward, then left/right)?
I can't remember the game I'm thinking of, but in the last board game I played with a grid, the rule is that if the vertex between the two squares is obstructed, then you can not move diagonally. If the vertex is unobstructed, you can. Pretty simple. So if the wall covers the entire side of the square, it reaches the "point" of the next square and counts as obstructed.
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