Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by ffordesoon » August 5th, 2013, 9:55 pm

This is (probably) what I'm going to do in the beta:

Play an hour or two of it. Not enough to spoil the whole game for myself, but enough to give informed feedback.

Write up an extensive list of (hopefully all minor) complaints. Any bugs I encounter are going on there, obviously, but my real concern is larger stuff like usability, feel, grammar and spelling, game flow, exploits, etc. Bugs are problems, but they can be patched. Stuff that's there by design but doesn't work the way it should is a far more pernicious problem. I'll leave the dedicated bug-hunting to those more anal-retentive than I. ;)

Wait until the game is finished to play the rest of it. I want to be surprised!

I do hope some people are planning on being genuine beta testers, though. I'd hate to see the first couple of hours receive all the polish and then watch the game turn into a bugfest after that. I expect there will be bugs, of course - games with this level of reactivity always have them. But we need to make a concerted effort to find as many as we can before the game is released into the wild - like it or not, review scores and initial impressions matter, and negative word of mouth will not do the game any favors.

I know the sales target is low, which is great, but I want Wasteland 2 to do much higher numbers than that. 500K, at the least. It probably won't crack a million - not until at least a year down the road, at any rate. But I think it can top the Steam charts for at least a couple of weeks and be a consistent earner if it gets enough positive press, and a big part of that is making sure it's as polished as it can be.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 5th, 2013, 10:38 pm

ffordesoon wrote:but my real concern is larger stuff like [...] grammar and spelling
The big issues! Haha, actually, I agree... but you and I are probably in the minority. Grammar nazis unite.

@Drool - I don't think Snake was criticizing people who buy the Collector's Edition (which includes beta access and a whole bunch of other cool stuff). I think he was referring to the fact that you can ADD beta access to your existing pre-order for an additional $20.

In that case it is, in fact, an additional purchase. You get nothing else for your $20.

I wouldn't criticize anyone who felt that it was worthwhile, whether because they wanted to get their hands on the game ASAP or they simply want to help in the development process (even if they have to pay to do it). I have to admit that Snake's logic is hard to shake off, that's all. You ARE paying them to do some of their work for them. We all get a better game as a result, but... you know.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Woolfe » August 5th, 2013, 11:20 pm

bdo7 wrote:
ffordesoon wrote:but my real concern is larger stuff like [...] grammar and spelling
The big issues! Haha, actually, I agree... but you and I are probably in the minority. Grammar nazis unite.
Represent brothers!!! ;) :lol:
You ARE paying them to do some of their work for them. We all get a better game as a result, but... you know.
Yeah but its your choice to do it. Which is the key difference. I think you will find that they are still doing beta testing themselves with a trusted team. But having a wider audience to catch the issues that's gotta help. Even if it is just hardware related issues.

I don't disagree with Snake, but I think he is taking it to the extreme as well.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Son of Max » August 5th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Drool wrote: Huh. And here I thought I was buying a CE box and it just happened to have beta access attached. I didn't really care about it, but it was included, like the Ranger badge. Now I know I'm just a spendthrift who is perpetuating bad business practices by paying for beta access.

I've learned so much about myself on these boards. First I hate games because I use Steam and now this. Wonder what I'll learn next!
You are also a vacuous, toffy nosed, malodorous PERVERT!!!

:lol:

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by SniperHF » August 6th, 2013, 12:41 am

Woolfe wrote: I think you will find that they are still doing beta testing themselves with a trusted team. But having a wider audience to catch the issues that's gotta help. Even if it is just hardware related issues.
I just read an interview from some Obsidian devs, and one of the mentioned that in smaller teams like this EVERYONE is QA. But for sure there will be some dedicated testers. I think the helpfulness of the semi-open beta for backers will be to catch things their groupthink might miss entirely due to being too close to the game. Fresh eyes.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 6th, 2013, 1:28 pm

Hmm, still haven't decided about the beta. Good thoughts, all.

Does anyone have specifics about the other stuff in the CE? What is the 'cloth map' like, or the figurine, or the badge?

Is the box itself different? Sounds like it, but is it like metal or something really cool?

Tried to find this info and struck out. Anyone got anything? Thanks.

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Wasteland 2 External News Thread

Post by Delicieuxz » August 9th, 2013, 5:26 am


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Re: Wasteland 2 External News Thread

Post by Crosmando » August 9th, 2013, 6:31 am

What a waste of an article just to push a certain political viewpoint, it's not like we didn't already know WL2 was going to have flavor text for the gender or nationality of rangers.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Gera Hmurov » August 9th, 2013, 9:27 am

Just read the article on RPS. Nice! Really eager to play it.
One moment concerns me though.

RPS: "If you happen to return his pigs without talking to him [Farmer] beforehand, he’ll just spurn your attempts to claim a reward. After all, he’s never seen you in his life. What reason does he have to believe you rescued his livestock-shaped livelihood? Maybe they just came back on their own, and where do you get off demanding a reward anyway?"

This concept sounds good overall. But there is a chance to read it differently. Like this "As a player you should get as much quests as you can before you go exploring something or otherwise you will lose all rewards. And never ever go to the interesting dark cave with treasure before you talk with everybody in town". I like exploring the gameworld around me (ah, underground of Toxic Caves in F2 was perfect...) and I like to do it without fear of losing rewards or incomplete quest.
I believe, InXile will do everything the best way they can but still this thing is bothering me. :?
And I hope this ranger with pigs will have a chance to get happy end with Farmer quest by a mysterious dialog option :)

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by MJFERN » August 9th, 2013, 12:03 pm

Gera Hmurov wrote:Just read the article on RPS. Nice! Really eager to play it.
One moment concerns me though.

RPS: "If you happen to return his pigs without talking to him [Farmer] beforehand, he’ll just spurn your attempts to claim a reward. After all, he’s never seen you in his life. What reason does he have to believe you rescued his livestock-shaped livelihood? Maybe they just came back on their own, and where do you get off demanding a reward anyway?"

This concept sounds good overall. But there is a chance to read it differently. Like this "As a player you should get as much quests as you can before you go exploring something or otherwise you will lose all rewards. And never ever go to the interesting dark cave with treasure before you talk with everybody in town". I like exploring the gameworld around me (ah, underground of Toxic Caves in F2 was perfect...) and I like to do it without fear of losing rewards or incomplete quest.
I believe, InXile will do everything the best way they can but still this thing is bothering me. :?
And I hope this ranger with pigs will have a chance to get happy end with Farmer quest by a mysterious dialog option :)
Don't look at it that way. Remember Brian's not expecting most people to see 50% of the game in one play through. Don't try to go out and get every quest you can find so that everything you could possibly do in the world will effect a quest outcome, go out and explore, and if you do a good deed, or bad, with more or less consequence because you hadn't found a quest that applies to it, so be it. There's going to be more than enough content to keep us busy. I'm sure I'll take my time and attempt to be thorough, but I am planning on multiple play throughs like the original, so I'm trying to take the view of 'content missed is another adventure for later'.

EDIT:
Sorry, that first sentence sounds kinda harsh...It's more of a suggestion than it sounds I promise.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 9th, 2013, 12:21 pm

Yeah. Personally, I've found the acceptance of missing content to be very liberating as a role-player. It really gives weight to your actions when you lock stuff out or simply walk on by. Otherwise, you're just Joe Paladin doing a checklist.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by shaigunjoe » August 9th, 2013, 12:37 pm

snakeoil wrote:@bdo7
nostalgia. i like hardcopies. i usually put them in a box after i am done and forget about them until i move and open these boxes, i go through all the games that are in it and i remember situations i had with the game or i remember friends and family i played the games with. sometimes when it scratches too hard and i have some free time i replay a game or just go through the collection testing some games. lately i set up my dreamcast to play shenmue for a couple of hours, then i played house of the dead 2. just thinking of these two games i cannot understand pc elitism, the fun with these games i have... a game with the feeling of hotd2 with the lightgun in your hand or timecrisis for playstation that is what console gaming is all about. games like killer 7 or rez...
the only negative thing about the very old boxed games is that they are on floppys and none of my pcs has floppy drives anymore. ok i have a old 486 dx/2 66mhz but nah, if i want to play one of the oldies i download them at some abandonware site and go dosboxing. ahh my old wing commander box with the blueprints....
downloads make games convenient but also move them out of the haptic context. they become software libraries that do not please my senses. its like digitally downloaded music, it lacks soul. at least to old fucks like me.
finally i guess hardcopies take away space, but what many people forget, they dont just take the space away, they fill it with memories and thats a whole diffrent quality than downloads could ever get (yet).
I got beta access becuase I went for the collector's edition, but in general I completely agree. Alpha/Beta access shouldn't be at a premium for people who want to play more, it is a way to improve the final product, and I think anyone who fronts the cash to produce the final product should get an equal say.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 9th, 2013, 12:43 pm

As far as choosing beta testers goes ... they can do it however they want. They obviously don't want to deal with 60,000 testers at once, at least in the first wave of the "public" beta. Why not tie it to a higher backer tier? It's either that or choosing randomly, or saying only people with a last name starting with M through P, or something else equally arbitrary.

It is unfortunate that many see beta testing as nothing more than getting to play the game early, and those people never report a single bug or help with actual testing at all, but that's not going to change no matter how the recruiting process is framed.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Lucius » August 9th, 2013, 12:54 pm

Zombra wrote:It is unfortunate that many see beta testing as nothing more than getting to play the game early, and those people never report a single bug or help with actual testing at all, but that's not going to change no matter how the recruiting process is framed.
Isn't that the point of buying beta access for $20 though? I see no other reason to add that on to your purchase than to be able to play early. Is it worth that much money to test their game for them? I don't think so. That addon solely exists to cater to people who want to play early.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 9th, 2013, 1:07 pm

Lucius wrote:
Zombra wrote:It is unfortunate that many see beta testing as nothing more than getting to play the game early
Isn't that the point of buying beta access for $20 though? I see no other reason to add that on to your purchase than to be able to play early. Is it worth that much money to test their game for them? I don't think so. That addon solely exists to cater to people who want to play early.
Shrug. It's not my place to guess the motivations of everyone who wanted into the beta. I would hope that some legitimately want to help ... you know ... test things. I didn't stump for a testing position, not because of the money, but because I don't want to spoil the game for myself. If I were a tester, I would take it as a duty as much as a toy, just as I have in beta tests for other games.

It's sad that you assume that people are all, "I paid $20 for this, so I just get to play, I don't have to report bugs or be helpful." You may be right, but I hope that W2 enthusiasts are a little more mature and responsible. :|
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Re: Wasteland 2 External News Thread

Post by Ronin73 » August 9th, 2013, 3:59 pm

Crosmando wrote:What a waste of an article just to push a certain political viewpoint, it's not like we didn't already know WL2 was going to have flavor text for the gender or nationality of rangers.
Not everyone follows the project as closely as we do, so the information will have value for others, and for me personally I just like seeing articles that reinforce some of the elements that are being put into this game.
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 9th, 2013, 9:17 pm

I don't think I mentioned ... after reading the RPS piece about reactivity ... I mean, I knew it was going to be reactive before that article ... but after reading it ... I started planning my second Ranger party. And you thought I was being ridiculous before! :geek:
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Priest4hire » August 10th, 2013, 3:19 am

Looking at the skill list, I realized what it was that felt off with the two medical skills: They're being treated more like character classes than skills. “Field Medics are the guys who are going to do a little more of the initial healing on you." That's blatant character class talk. In a skill based system, field medic is a skill, not what you are. It strikes me as sloppy to conflate a skill with a class like that. And what does medical training have to do with steadiness in combat? By treating it that way, it opens up an absurd scenario:

John McBadass is utterly unflappable and deadly in combat. This is reflected in his many combat skills and in the countless foes he's calmly crushed. And he never looks at explosions. So he saves an old man who turns out to be a surgeon. Thus he has a chance to learn surgery and takes it. So what is it? Does the surgery suddenly cause him to lose his cool in combat, degrading his combat abilities? Or is he still the coolest of the cool until he tries to treat someone at which he suddenly develops nerves?

If steadiness in combat is a thing, it should be its own skill. Failing that, it should be tied to combat skills. Tying it to a medical skill is just weird, and requires that you selectively ignore the implications. Namely that combat focused characters should require the field medic skill in order to function properly since it's the skill that determines steadiness under fire.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 10th, 2013, 7:44 am

Priest4hire wrote:Looking at the skill list, I realized what it was that felt off with the two medical skills: They're being treated more like character classes than skills. “Field Medics are the guys who are going to do a little more of the initial healing on you." That's blatant character class talk. In a skill based system, field medic is a skill, not what you are. It strikes me as sloppy to conflate a skill with a class like that.
Eh, it's just the way the guy phrased it while talking out loud. Remember that all those descriptions are quotes from the Project Lead, not one of the writers, not one of the skill system designers. When the appropriate person sits down to write the manual, it will be different:
Chris Keenan wrote:Field Medics are the guys who are going to do a little more of the initial healing on you. They feel a little more comfortable on the battlefield. When you get to the Surgeons, they are not great in combat scenarios, but what they can do well is, if you have some sort of a status effect on you – if you’re poisoned by something – they can work to remove that.
Zombra version: “Field Medic is the EMT skill to do the initial healing on you. It is a little more useful on the battlefield. The Surgeon skill is not great in the heat of combat, but if you have some sort of longer-term status effect, such as poison, a character with the Surgeon skill can work to remove that.”

There. I just said the exact same thing without attributing any "classness" to characters with these skills. "Problem" solved. :)
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 10th, 2013, 2:21 pm

Wow, priest, I think you're working REALLY hard to create a problem there. :P

Field medic = can be used in combat, minor healing

Surgeon = cannot be used in combat, major healing

...pretty standard CRPG stuff, I thought.

Also, there is no mention of class anywhere. You made that part up, I'm afraid. It's OK to call someone a name based on their skill set. If a guy is really good at fixing cars, you call that guy a mechanic. That doesn't automatically mean he can't play the piano. He's not "limited" to a "mechanic class." It's just one thing he's good at.

If you have one guy on your team with medical skills, you'll probably think of him as your medic. He may also have the highest demolition skill, too. So?

As long as he doesn't get the gauze confused with the C4, I'm really not seeing a problem. :lol:

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