Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Brother None » August 2nd, 2013, 3:40 pm

Crosmando wrote:That's what I've been saying about the skill list being clarified. I assume WL2 is now at the stage when all the gameplay mechanics are locked in, it would be nice to get it cleared up with a definitive skill list with corresponding descriptions. Too much confusion.
I don't believe things are locked in and unchangeable at this stage, no, but we do plan to talk more about skills in a future update, yes.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Drool » August 2nd, 2013, 9:08 pm

Brother None wrote:I don't believe things are locked in and unchangeable at this stage, no, but we do plan to talk more about skills in a future update, yes.
Yes, thank you. Someone else mentioned it in one of these threads, but it would be nice if big information like this went out in updates as opposed to tracking down a second or third hand retelling of a translation of an interview. Both interviews also seemed to leave off some skills that an update included, and had other skills the update didn't, and skills each other didn't (possibly an artifact of translation), and...

Getting a solid (or even mostly solid) skill list in an update and thus all official would be really nice.

That being said, I'm also pleased that it looks like you guys went literal with Toaster Repair. I also quite like how the Backer skill is shaping up. More lore is always good.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Hiver » August 3rd, 2013, 12:22 am

IF you guys can deliver, then this will be something that might even be better then Fallout games.

IF.


-edit-
your take on medicine skills split into two is as silly and nonsensical as it ever was, btw.
ill roll with it but it doesnt really make any bloody sense.

/

Mutually exclusive content, or - limits, is the true defining core mechanic of an RPG. Be it skills that you cannot have all, classes that cannot achieve what other classes can, parts of the story you cannot "get" in one play-through, mutually exclusive quests, or locations.

Therefore this could be one of the best truest RPGs ever made. And i really hope this kind of thinking will heavily seep into Torment too.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by snakeoil » August 3rd, 2013, 10:58 am

Ronin73 wrote:
snakeoil wrote:the preview left me sceptical. i am not overly hyped for W2
Yeah, I get that expectations need to be tempered, but no offense, you haven't exactly given the appearance of being "hyped" since the first day you posted here.
well i gave my money to this project, i have contributed a lot of opinion, i posted several mockups and many ideas to make W2 a great game. i am very hyped to the idea of getting a bigbudget independent rpg from experienced people. i played the first part and liked it back then. now i may be more critical than other people but how could that be a bad thing? having played tons of games for the last 30 years i have a pretty precise idea of what i enjoy and what not. if you say "COOL, AP-SYSTEM!" i say "i dont like ap-systems because i think they are flawed and not as much fun as this and that."
if thinks are ok, i dont have to clap like a seal. but if things are not ok (in my opinion) i dont hold back since i want the best possible game. you will also see that most of my critical posts offer solutions, i dont just post and say its shit, fuck you.its not that i do not trust inxile to deliver a good game, but its of absolutely no help if everyone is like "you guys are great, this artwork is marvelous, you are the best, may i carry your suitcase?" if you acknowledge whats good but at the same time tell em what could be better in your very experienced eyes, so that if they read it they may think about it or be inspired to solve a diffrent problem, its the very best how people can help shaping a great game.so, i would consider myself hyped enough to not be overly disappointed even if this project fails. but i am experienced enough not to be trapped by promises. (my perception skill is quite high, i spent lots of points on it)

concerning what i wrote about the PR-bullshitmachine, you can read it in every article, about every game, on every gaming site, in billions of great variations. 9 out of 10 times its hype hype hype -bang!- hot air.

instead of getting all the talk about whats so great about making wasteland 2 and how great everything is i would rather like to see more or the things that are not in a good shape or things that could be problematic in the end.
right now, after reading the RPS review my biggest fear is that there are so many sidestories that the W2 world as a whole will feel kinda empty. you can do some sort of main questline with variations, you can chose to play smaller sidequests but will you feel connected to your party?, arent 32 skills 20 too much? , how big of a footprint will you leave in the wasteland after 20hrs gametime?, is the combat fun at all?, will it all fit together well?, will micromanagement be frustrating?, will it be too linear, will the world border you in too much and how much freedom do you have?, is there anything you can do thats fun besides going on quests/missions, is there more than levelling up and looking for bigger guns, will crafting be as lame as crafting was in RAGE?
there are so many ways W2 can turn out to be a bad game, especially when everyone is overconfident.

i trust inxile, i trust that they are fully aware of a possible desastrous consequences of a bad release (crowdfundwise). and i trust brian fargo to sell me a car that wont break down after the first corner for a reasonable price (lol, not really). so i expect nothing less than the best game ever made (after GTA 5 of course). if you dont consider that hyped, i dont know.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 3rd, 2013, 12:13 pm

Uh-oh, I'm starting to like this guy. He's making sense.

But as long as he keeps plugging Grand Theft of Duty Field 38 as a great game, I think I can avoid liking him TOO much. ;)

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Zombra » August 3rd, 2013, 12:30 pm

Yeah. Good post, snake. Neither fanboy praise nor trollish complaints make for useful criticism. The happy medium is simply to say what you think, explain (lucidly) what you like and why, and what you dislike and why.

And you're right; while we're all happy to hear about the game's strengths, its hidden weaknesses (if any :P) are what need to be considered. We (and inXile) need to ask: what is the worst, most boring, most disappointing thing about Wasteland 2 as the design stands now? Which parts will the player merely endure to get back to the good stuff? Where does it bog down? Once they (and we) are confident that the least fun part, whatever that is, is still super fun, only then can our expectations for the best game ever be met. :)
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Hertzila » August 3rd, 2013, 3:07 pm

Lots of nice information in the interview. Some of the skills sound very overlapping with each other, but that isn't really bothering me. While too much overlap is still bad, the alternative scenario, very few skills and little-to-no overlap, is worse, especially with multiple PCs. At least now everybody might have very distinct skill sets.
The part about too much leadership between two characters sounds a bit stupid, though. I can see the point if they have a very similar level of leadership, but if two guys both have high leadership but one even more so (e.g. basic level is 1, first guy has 6 and the second 10), it would seem logical to me that the one much higher would be the one in command, with the other guy being second-in-command. I'll adapt however it's set up, but limiting leadership to effectively one guy would seem to discourage splitting the party.

The amount the interview focused on the humorous side of Wasteland 2 is a bit worrisome to me. I can understand Fallout 1 and 2 level of humor (especially black humor), but the way they talk about including pretty much anything that makes them crack up is now making my mind envision Wasteland 2 as "Saints Row: The apocalyptic, turn based edition". Not going to happen but that's the impression I got. :|
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Ronin73 » August 3rd, 2013, 4:31 pm

snakeoil wrote:
Ronin73 wrote:
snakeoil wrote:the preview left me sceptical. i am not overly hyped for W2
Yeah, I get that expectations need to be tempered, but no offense, you haven't exactly given the appearance of being "hyped" since the first day you posted here.
well i gave my money to this project, i have contributed a lot of opinion, i posted several mockups and many ideas to make W2 a great game. i am very hyped to the idea of getting a bigbudget independent rpg from experienced people. i played the first part and liked it back then. now i may be more critical than other people but how could that be a bad thing? having played tons of games for the last 30 years i have a pretty precise idea of what i enjoy and what not. if you say "COOL, AP-SYSTEM!" i say "i dont like ap-systems because i think they are flawed and not as much fun as this and that."
if thinks are ok, i dont have to clap like a seal. but if things are not ok (in my opinion) i dont hold back since i want the best possible game. you will also see that most of my critical posts offer solutions, i dont just post and say its shit, fuck you.its not that i do not trust inxile to deliver a good game, but its of absolutely no help if everyone is like "you guys are great, this artwork is marvelous, you are the best, may i carry your suitcase?" if you acknowledge whats good but at the same time tell em what could be better in your very experienced eyes, so that if they read it they may think about it or be inspired to solve a diffrent problem, its the very best how people can help shaping a great game.so, i would consider myself hyped enough to not be overly disappointed even if this project fails. but i am experienced enough not to be trapped by promises. (my perception skill is quite high, i spent lots of points on it)

concerning what i wrote about the PR-bullshitmachine, you can read it in every article, about every game, on every gaming site, in billions of great variations. 9 out of 10 times its hype hype hype -bang!- hot air.

instead of getting all the talk about whats so great about making wasteland 2 and how great everything is i would rather like to see more or the things that are not in a good shape or things that could be problematic in the end.
right now, after reading the RPS review my biggest fear is that there are so many sidestories that the W2 world as a whole will feel kinda empty. you can do some sort of main questline with variations, you can chose to play smaller sidequests but will you feel connected to your party?, arent 32 skills 20 too much? , how big of a footprint will you leave in the wasteland after 20hrs gametime?, is the combat fun at all?, will it all fit together well?, will micromanagement be frustrating?, will it be too linear, will the world border you in too much and how much freedom do you have?, is there anything you can do thats fun besides going on quests/missions, is there more than levelling up and looking for bigger guns, will crafting be as lame as crafting was in RAGE?
there are so many ways W2 can turn out to be a bad game, especially when everyone is overconfident.

i trust inxile, i trust that they are fully aware of a possible desastrous consequences of a bad release (crowdfundwise). and i trust brian fargo to sell me a car that wont break down after the first corner for a reasonable price (lol, not really). so i expect nothing less than the best game ever made (after GTA 5 of course). if you dont consider that hyped, i dont know.
Fair enough, Snake. Good response. Are you in the upcoming beta?
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Lucius » August 3rd, 2013, 8:16 pm

Hertzila wrote:The part about too much leadership between two characters sounds a bit stupid, though. I can see the point if they have a very similar level of leadership, but if two guys both have high leadership but one even more so (e.g. basic level is 1, first guy has 6 and the second 10), it would seem logical to me that the one much higher would be the one in command, with the other guy being second-in-command. I'll adapt however it's set up, but limiting leadership to effectively one guy would seem to discourage splitting the party.
Hm, I'd disagree. I thought the idea was to prevent you from just giving everyone leadership for the added boosts it gives. Without the drawback it becomes a given for all characters. The "too many chiefs" comparison works well to explain the mechanic. Now, you will either have 1 character with leadership and do without when the party is split, or 2 or more leaders and will essentially always have to split the party even when it's not that feasible to do so.
The amount the interview focused on the humorous side of Wasteland 2 is a bit worrisome to me. I can understand Fallout 1 and 2 level of humor (especially black humor), but the way they talk about including pretty much anything that makes them crack up is now making my mind envision Wasteland 2 as "Saints Row: The apocalyptic, turn based edition". Not going to happen but that's the impression I got. :|
Yeah, I got that impression too. I always thought Wasteland had some crazy characters but I never got the impression that the game was one big joke fest. The mood was serious despite the oddness of some of the creatures and situations. I never felt it was over the top. Guess we'll see what Wasteland 2 ends up being.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Crosmando » August 3rd, 2013, 9:21 pm

Have you played Wasteland Lucius? It was easily the most goofball, least subtle cRPG of it's era, everything from Robocop, Planet of the Apes, Mad Max and a bunch of stuff from the 80's all found their way into the game. It would be a mistake if the developers did not try to put contemporary stuff in it from today, because that's exactly how the original came about.

Hope this isn't another "Wasteland 2 is supposed to be a party-based Fallout clone" supposition.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by malthaussen » August 4th, 2013, 7:21 am

As far as the concentration on "humorous" content in the RPS piece goes, remember that RPS never met a gag they didn't like.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by snakeoil » August 5th, 2013, 4:46 am

Ronin73 wrote:Fair enough, Snake. Good response. Are you in the upcoming beta?
no, no beta for me. i went for the old school boxed version. once the beta pops up i guess well have some movies on youtube to watch, thats enough for me. i never buy dlc or microtransaction stuff and i will certainly not buy beta access. inxile should pay me or at least put it out freely that would be right, letting people pay for testing a game for bugs may be a modern way to do business, but in my opinion it is just bad style. there are people (i wont call em idiots) that pay for everything once there is a pricetag and they are not the only ones being ripped off. of course they wont see it like that, its fun to play parts of the game beforehand and its their money they will say, yes i understand that, but they are supporting a growing ripoff business moral in the games industry. we all are already paying for these unreflected people by getting half assed games, by paying for online services like xboxlive and soon psn, and pretty much all negative aspects of recent business development (DLC, microtransactions, F2P...). its all build up on negative behaviour of people. paying for beta testing is selfish and short sighted. people should see the cash they own as what it really is, it is your only voice in capitalistic democracies.
dont get me wrong though, being selfish is ok but in the end we all will pay a higher price.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 5th, 2013, 5:23 am

snakeoil wrote:
Ronin73 wrote:Fair enough, Snake. Good response. Are you in the upcoming beta?
no, no beta for me. i went for the old school boxed version. once the beta pops up i guess well have some movies on youtube to watch, thats enough for me. i never buy dlc or microtransaction stuff and i will certainly not buy beta access. inxile should pay me or at least put it out freely that would be right, letting people pay for testing a game for bugs may be a modern way to do business, but in my opinion it is just bad style
Egad, you're like a bucket of cold water in the middle of a nice dream.

But I mean that in a good way.

I was all set to pay for beta access, but I can't argue with your logic. I've done beta testing before, and it was actually a lot of really tedious work (2+ years developing the X-Tended Mod for X3 Terran Conflict). I mean, it was awesome at first, being one of the privileged few to get my hands on the code, but after a while, it was just a bug hunt. It also ruined the final product for me. I never played it.

Out of curiosity, why are you stumping for the boxed version with all the extra crap, then? Wouldn't it be better to just spend $25 and get the game and nothing more? You're paying a lot of extra dosh for a box, a map, and some "digital extras" (i.e. DLC).

I'm about to place my own order, and I appreciate your perspective (since it's so unashamedly honest, haha).

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by SniperHF » August 5th, 2013, 5:46 am

bdo7 wrote: Egad, you're like a bucket of cold water in the middle of a nice dream.

But I mean that in a good way.

I was all set to pay for beta access, but I can't argue with your logic. I've done beta testing before, and it was actually a lot of really tedious work (2+ years developing the X-Tended Mod for X3 Terran Conflict). I mean, it was awesome at first, being one of the privileged few to get my hands on the code, but after a while, it was just a bug hunt. It also ruined the final product for me. I never played it..
These semi-open betas aren't really that much work though. It's not like we are going to be the QA department with a checklist to run down :lol:
Though I'm sure a few users around here will treat it like that. I'll certainly report what I see but Not going out of my way to break the game either.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by snakeoil » August 5th, 2013, 5:57 am

@bdo7
nostalgia. i like hardcopies. i usually put them in a box after i am done and forget about them until i move and open these boxes, i go through all the games that are in it and i remember situations i had with the game or i remember friends and family i played the games with. sometimes when it scratches too hard and i have some free time i replay a game or just go through the collection testing some games. lately i set up my dreamcast to play shenmue for a couple of hours, then i played house of the dead 2. just thinking of these two games i cannot understand pc elitism, the fun with these games i have... a game with the feeling of hotd2 with the lightgun in your hand or timecrisis for playstation that is what console gaming is all about. games like killer 7 or rez...
the only negative thing about the very old boxed games is that they are on floppys and none of my pcs has floppy drives anymore. ok i have a old 486 dx/2 66mhz but nah, if i want to play one of the oldies i download them at some abandonware site and go dosboxing. ahh my old wing commander box with the blueprints....
downloads make games convenient but also move them out of the haptic context. they become software libraries that do not please my senses. its like digitally downloaded music, it lacks soul. at least to old fucks like me.
finally i guess hardcopies take away space, but what many people forget, they dont just take the space away, they fill it with memories and thats a whole diffrent quality than downloads could ever get (yet).

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Crosmando » August 5th, 2013, 6:42 am

Bro, no offense. But paragraphs.
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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by snakeoil » August 5th, 2013, 7:38 am

Crosmando wrote:Bro, no offense. But paragraphs.
yeah i forgot paragraphs for gamecube, great game! thx bro!

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by bdo7 » August 5th, 2013, 8:05 am

snakeoil wrote: ahh my old wing commander box with the blueprints....
Ooooh, OK, now I'm all jealous. I bought the collector's edition of Skyrim and the 'survivor' edition of Fallout 3 with the wearable Pip-Boy (shhhh don't tell BrotherNone!) but I might trade them both for some WC blueprints, lol.

Well, as you can see, I personally love boxed / collector's editions as well. I was just wondering what your personal reasons were, since you seem kinda anti-fluff. But yeah, physical fluff is something different, I guess.
snakeoil wrote:downloads make games convenient but also move them out of the haptic context.
...that's the first time in YEARS that a comment on an internet forum has made me reach for a dictionary. Actually, I just hit dictionary.com, so it was a non-haptic experience. (Ahaptic? Anhaptic?)

I wish we had more information on the Wasteland 2 Collector's Edition. Is the actual box different from the $60 box? What's the 'figurine'? What's the 'faction badge'?

And how big is the cloth map (either boxed version) anyway? What's it made of?

Wow, there goes the thread, sorry.

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Ronin73 » August 5th, 2013, 3:25 pm

snakeoil wrote:
Ronin73 wrote:Fair enough, Snake. Good response. Are you in the upcoming beta?
no, no beta for me.
Well I only asked because you will have an opportunity for more input. It's also possible that posting beta videos on YouTube could potentially be part of a NDA. Just an opinion on my part.

For the record I'm getting boxed copies as well, but I'll be damned if I'm going to miss out on giving more input into the final product. Well that and the fact beta access was included in my pledge :P

Each to their own I guess.
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: Rock Paper Shotgun previews Wasteland 2

Post by Drool » August 5th, 2013, 9:30 pm

snakeoil wrote:but in my opinion it is just bad style. there are people (i wont call em idiots) that pay for everything once there is a pricetag
Huh. And here I thought I was buying a CE box and it just happened to have beta access attached. I didn't really care about it, but it was included, like the Ranger badge. Now I know I'm just a spendthrift who is perpetuating bad business practices by paying for beta access.

I've learned so much about myself on these boards. First I hate games because I use Steam and now this. Wonder what I'll learn next!
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