Update 31: Distributing matters

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Brother None » July 14th, 2013, 7:15 am

Darkzone wrote:Dear Brother None,
please check your scripts, i have not double posted anything.
Please read the rules. "Double" or "multiple" posting is not allowed. If you are the last post in the thread, edit your post, it is not allowed to post back to back.

If readability is a problem, just format with ====s or quote blocks.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Jukkahvi » July 14th, 2013, 7:33 am

Darkzone has some valid points.

UI could resemble something that lasted throught the EMP. That can give the player right mind setting from get go. UI is not working just because.

And now is starting to crumble apart. That gives a hint of scarcity.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Zombra » July 14th, 2013, 8:21 am

Zombra wrote:
Darkzone wrote:I would call the desert rangers an army for hire.
There's nothing to show that the Desert Rangers are or ever were mercenaries.
Darkzone wrote:Not quite Zombra. :)
There are no other indication to show us the opposite.
Even at the beginning of the Demo it is said quite clearly that the Agricultural Center is paying them for protection. That makes them quite an unit for hire.
I guess you're right. Really, every military force is "for hire" in some sense. Even a national army only does its job for those who pay their taxes.
No offence. Just try to clearify my postion and statement. ;)
None taken of course :)
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Hiver » July 14th, 2013, 9:04 am

Here are two usable mock up two other people made. first a critique from Aeschylus:

Image

Pretty straight forward and much in line with my immediate reaction and several others ive seen around.


Then a mockup by Phantazmal, that could very well be ONE OF THE solutions.

Image

When i saw this, i just thought: "Wouldnt it be great if there were two or three different starting default Ui shapes, that could then be customizable themselves?"

And you could call this a "Classic Ui" too.

If just straight up making one like this (only improved more) is "too much" then making just a appropriate "dock" (or background space), where we could then move the other sections of Ui to, could be a feasible thing to create - yes?

Best thing about this idea is that it would please everyone. If it can be done.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Brother None » July 14th, 2013, 9:12 am

hiver; we're talking about pretty much that possibility now. Depends on the cost/time it would take, but it would be a nice option to offer.
mDC wrote:1) I will get a boxed copy of the game. Is that the same copy anyone else can buy in the future?
No, they're different.
mDC wrote:2) Being a german I had to add $20 for international shipping and now a german company deals with the whole distribution. This kinda sucks :/
It does. Honesty first: we simply did not foresee working with a European distributor when we launched our KS or late backer store. Of course, the shipping costs are in a way distribution funds, and that's what they were used for, but shipping in Germany may indeed come at a significant saving (but we don't actually know what the cost difference is exactly yet). Also, do keep in mind the monies that are "left over" from shipping charges simply go right back into the game. If it is a real issue for you, we can look into refunding the difference to you once we know our exact charges.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Hiver » July 14th, 2013, 10:08 am

Brother None wrote:hiver; we're talking about pretty much that possibility now. Depends on the cost/time it would take, but it would be a nice option to offer.
aha, i knew you were smart guys there.

btw, i will use the new one since i like it better, it just needs some more tuning up. And for character portraits to be able to get moved around individually.


...


-

The small skill icons under the character portraits in the new one should be green on black, like the equipped weapon presentation screen uses in the first Ui concept.

Equipped weapon slot should use the picture "icon" the new Ui uses, instead.

... its better.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Zombra » July 14th, 2013, 11:12 am

Hiver wrote:Here are two usable mock up two other people made.
Any chance of higher res versions? I can't even read the commentary on that first one.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Brother None » July 14th, 2013, 11:18 am

Zombra wrote:
Hiver wrote:Here are two usable mock up two other people made.
Any chance of higher res versions? I can't even read the commentary on that first one.
Just remove the "l" from imgur URLs to get the original resolution

http://i.imgur.com/4wUeOpq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fDyaGK9.jpg
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by namelessxx » July 14th, 2013, 11:27 am

Hiver wrote:Here are two usable mock up two other people made. first a critique from Aeschylus:

Image

Pretty straight forward and much in line with my immediate reaction and several others ive seen around.


Then a mockup by Phantazmal, that could very well be ONE OF THE solutions.

Image

When i saw this, i just thought: "Wouldnt it be great if there were two or three different starting default Ui shapes, that could then be customizable themselves?"

And you could call this a "Classic Ui" too.

If just straight up making one like this (only improved more) is "too much" then making just a appropriate "dock" (or background space), where we could then move the other sections of Ui to, could be a feasible thing to create - yes?

Best thing about this idea is that it would please everyone. If it can be done.
i could really dig the second one. it really needs the printer though.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Zombra » July 14th, 2013, 11:51 am

Thanks B_N
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Darkzone » July 14th, 2013, 11:52 am

Hiver,
having a Dock for UI Components is a very good idea, and if we can choose between different Docks that would be great. And if we could choose the look and style of the UI Components and have even some customizing options, like color for lamps, buttons, backgrounds, parts of components and writing it would be even better. Customizing fontsyles and fontsizes would be also great. A possibe choice of a seven-segment display for the display of AP, Terminal look for the text outputs and the green dot matrix for weapons would make my day. Also the Dock and Components should be available in colors like: olive green, sand, anthracite and camo. :D :lol:
I always think options and choices are good. And the 'Classic UI' from Phantazmal is not bad.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by paradox-fi » July 14th, 2013, 2:43 pm

I think this "allow players to choose" idea is getting out of hand, at least judging by posts here. We must have solid HUD, modular HUD, non-intrusive HUD, dock HUD, HUD with duct tape, welded HUD, rusty HUD, polished HUD, HUD with matrix dot printer, HUD without printer. Or must we?

HUD will be modular, that was promised in the kickstarter campaign, so InXile can't not do that. *IF* it doesn't eat too much into resources, I'm fine with different versions of HUD elements, but I don't think that should be high priority. It's cool that InXile shows us WIP imagery and we can comment on them, but it's still up to them to decide which version to use in the final product. Hopefully the cacophony of voices here (or elsewhere) doesn't cause them to lose their own vision.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Woolfe » July 14th, 2013, 3:51 pm

Darkzone wrote: Hi Woofe, :)
if you could link me to your dispute with Captain Patch, i could make me a better picture of the different
viewpoints and arrgumentations.
I think most of it was here. http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.c ... =10&t=2880 but honestly we tended to argue across multiple threads. So its not impossible that chunks of it are in other threads as well.
Darkzone wrote: As to the descendence there are no difference in our knowledge. :!:
? I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if the people involved in the Rangers went from just actual Army Recruited trained engineers, to them + Local survivalists, prison guards, other survivors? Are you suggested that wouldn't cause a change in the basis of the Ranger "force". Because we know its not true, as they did change enough to at least rename themselves. There is a huge difference between engineers performing "make work" to keep busy and people actively living through constant conflict. Especially as they were isolated for much of that time.
Darkzone wrote:But the current form of military organisation of the US Army is not necessary the only form of miliary organisation.
The Mamelukes, Mongol Hords, Medival Armies and Cossacks had other form of military organisation and were clearly identified as an Army. So even with certain changes the desert rangers remain a typical military hierarchie and behavior and there are no other indications. :geek:
If there were any other references to any not army related behavior or something else, i would like to see it.
Fair enough, and no doubt correct, but based on both the title and the actions of your party, it is pretty obvious that whilst a military hierarchy exists, you as "Rangers" have a much greater autonomy and independence of action than in a traditional military force. Indeed more in line with a "police" force. So whilst the military hierarchy exists, they are not a military in the modern sense of the word(that we can see). Indeed they are probably more like a modern Militia. However the use of the term "Rangers" is suggestive of an internal desire to be law bringers, not just a militia. (in the sense of Texas and Arizona Rangers, who both became "police" forces) Indeed I believe the Texas Rangers are now essentially the equivalent of a "Marshall". At least that is what I have been reading. I am not a yank, and have no personal expertise out of interest.
Darkzone wrote:To the Protection of Equipment from an EMP.
As you can see i have taken the civil tech. out, so the chance of survival of any civil technology, beyond vacuum tubes is really small because those are really vulnerable to EMP form nuclear explosions.
This is not known. The suggestion is that dependant on the Pulse itself a lot of equipment would be permanently damaged, but not all. Most would be disrupted to a point where it would be unusable, but could be repaired.
Even vacuum tubes can be damaged by EMP.
Its gotta be pretty close and a real big pulse for that.
The Soviet Union had used vacuum tubes even in the last years of their existence in military equipment, because of the EMP.
Irrelevant.
If military tech. of the US Army in the 90s would survive an EMP? Let me speculate:
If they are in a shilding enviroment like a deap bunker. Yes they could survive.
Which in the case of the Engineers is not a consideration, as they were out on "make work" detail. Thus not at base with reliable deep bunkers. Indeed this consideration can actually be applied to many things civilian. How many underground parking lots, power facilities etc exist. Again this is dependant on the strength of the pulse.
If they are in metall casing and isolated from them. Yes the chances are higher.
Lots of gear in metal casing, not just military.
If they are in the open. Unless they are based on Vacuum Tubes, probably not.

In theory all of the Military gear would have been "in the open" as they were out building bridges, not at a base.
If they are turned on, and based opon solid state electronics. Not very likely. More a not.
Off provides a degree of protection, but again dependant on the pulse itself.
So the chance of survival of military technology is much much higher than that of civil tech, because civil tech is in the open, often turned on, not in a shilding enviroment and based on solid state electronics.
In general Yes, in the specific case of the Army Engineers who became the rangers. No it doesn't.
But the military tech is sometimes in a shilding enviroment, made durable, in the 90s and 80s sometimes still based upon older vacuum tubes technology, sometimes even shilded due to the kind of transportation, much technology is bunkerd, which means turned of, and if we take the history of Wasteland world into the account, then they were all ready to make a nuklear war on each other, so yes they had those things perhaps shilded. All those things lead me to the expression that i have made.
Yeah I thought that too, but as it turns out most military equipment and civil infrastructure was vulnerable at least into the turn of the millennium.
And in the knowledge that every Nation has bunkered for their Army military equipment like: tanks, arms, small arms, radio devices and even computers. I would say that only military electronic tech would survive the nuklear war and would be in use after it. :ugeek:
Yep, but the Rangers were isolated for 75+ years. Your team in the original game were one of the first to travel beyond the immediate area of Highpool and the Ag centre. And as they were out on duty at the time of the war, they wouldn't have access to electronic tech except for what was with them.
But if you would ask me how at least a good shilding should be i would say that i can't tell you. :?:
If an aluminum crate with isolation (rubber) is enough to shild your equipment from an NEMP at low attitudes i don't know.
:(
Yeah me either.

The whole EMP from nukes issue is apparently still a pretty vague area of discussion as far as actual practical testing has gone. The theory is suggestive, and many science fiction writers have run with it. But it is not as "known" as many make out.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Zombra » July 14th, 2013, 5:33 pm

paradox-fi wrote:I think this "allow players to choose" idea is getting out of hand, at least judging by posts here. We must have solid HUD, modular HUD, non-intrusive HUD, dock HUD, HUD with duct tape, welded HUD, rusty HUD, polished HUD, HUD with matrix dot printer, HUD without printer. Or must we?

HUD will be modular, that was promised in the kickstarter campaign, so InXile can't not do that. *IF* it doesn't eat too much into resources, I'm fine with different versions of HUD elements, but I don't think that should be high priority. It's cool that InXile shows us WIP imagery and we can comment on them, but it's still up to them to decide which version to use in the final product. Hopefully the cacophony of voices here (or elsewhere) doesn't cause them to lose their own vision.
All I said was that we might as well have the option to pick and choose from the art that has already been created anyway. If they try 3 or 4 different passes at each element, why should they pick one and only one and make us use that? They made the "old monitor" text window and the "dot matrix" text window, both. Some people like the printer, some (like me) prefer the monitor. Why should they delete one of the two? In fact, why shouldn't they experiment with other styles if their art team wants to, and make them all available?

Normally, I'm suspicious of difficulty sliders and other gameplay options, because there is a potential to erode the "One True Design" of the game. But cosmetic UI elements have zero impact on gameplay design.

Assuming that it's not difficult to add a UI tab to the options menu, I see no good reason not to let us choose. This isn't an argument of "spend time creating more options for options' sake". These options are already created.
Last edited by Zombra on July 14th, 2013, 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Hiver » July 14th, 2013, 5:58 pm

Darkzone wrote:Hiver,
having a Dock for UI Components is a very good idea, and if we can choose between different Docks that would be great. And if we could choose the look and style of the UI Components and have even some customizing options, like color for lamps, buttons, backgrounds, parts of components and writing it would be even better. Customizing fontsyles and fontsizes would be also great. A possibe choice of a seven-segment display for the display of AP, Terminal look for the text outputs and the green dot matrix for weapons would make my day. Also the Dock and Components should be available in colors like: olive green, sand, anthracite and camo. :D :lol:
I always think options and choices are good. And the 'Classic UI' from Phantazmal is not bad.
- yeah right.

and space lazors too shoting out of the eyes of giant killer robots whu, whu,, wuuup...

paradox-fi wrote:I think this "allow players to choose" idea is getting out of hand, at least judging by posts here. We must have solid HUD, modular HUD, non-intrusive HUD, dock HUD, HUD with duct tape, welded HUD, rusty HUD, polished HUD, HUD with matrix dot printer, HUD without printer. Or must we?
Holy blowing it out of proportion Batman!!!
HUD will be modular, that was promised in the kickstarter campaign, so InXile can't not do that. *IF* it doesn't eat too much into resources, I'm fine with different versions of HUD elements, but I don't think that should be high priority. It's cool that InXile shows us WIP imagery and we can comment on them, but it's still up to them to decide which version to use in the final product. Hopefully the cacophony of voices here (or elsewhere) doesn't cause them to lose their own vision.
ach shut yer blatherbox, berk.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Crosmando » July 14th, 2013, 9:26 pm

Hiver wrote: Image
This mock-up is pretty good. My only problem is that it's too dark, almost the opposite from the new one where everything stands out. Also the text-log isn't very clear and readable either.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Drool » July 14th, 2013, 9:40 pm

Zombra wrote: Why should they delete one of the two? In fact, why shouldn't they experiment with other styles if their art team wants to, and make them all available?
It fits with the concept of "fully customizable UI" too.
Normally, I'm suspicious of difficulty sliders and other gameplay options, because there is a potential to erode the "One True Design" of the game. But cosmetic UI elements have zero impact on gameplay design.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Montjoie » July 15th, 2013, 2:08 am

paradox-fi wrote:HUD will be modular, that was promised in the kickstarter campaign, so InXile can't not do that. *IF* it doesn't eat too much into resources, I'm fine with different versions of HUD elements, but I don't think that should be high priority.
I totally agree with this.


Zombra wrote:All I said was that we might as well have the option to pick and choose from the art that has already been created anyway. If they try 3 or 4 different passes at each element, why should they pick one and only one and make us use that? They made the "old monitor" text window and the "dot matrix" text window, both. Some people like the printer, some (like me) prefer the monitor. Why should they delete one of the two? In fact, why shouldn't they experiment with other styles if their art team wants to, and make them all available?
Makes sense, i agree with that too.

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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by Crosmando » July 15th, 2013, 4:38 am

Wow, I just found another mock-up by that Phantasmal guy on RPGCodex:
http://i.imgur.com/1s0cQsa.jpg

This is amazing, it's perfect. And as mentioned the part with portrait could work as a "dock" so the text-box and weapon-box could be moved around, preserving the customizable UI thing.

Edit: @Brother None! Get in here and look at this one
Last edited by Crosmando on July 15th, 2013, 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Update 31: Distributing matters

Post by tomatpaburk » July 15th, 2013, 5:02 am

Crosmando wrote:Wow, I just found another mock-up by that Phantasmal guy on RPGCodex:
Image

This is amazing, it's perfect. And as mentioned the part with portrait could work as a "dock" so the text-box and weapon-box could be moved around, preserving the customizable UI thing.
I agree that looks great.

I personally prefer "solid" looking UI's over ones with "cables and screens" hanging in the air.

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