Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Mutantovich » June 6th, 2013, 1:02 pm

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Last edited by Mutantovich on June 7th, 2013, 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Grohal » June 6th, 2013, 6:38 pm

Hiver wrote:
Grohal wrote: The inventory looks as un-rpg-ly as it gets. And if I imanage this inventory with 3 or 4 times as many items... it just sucks. Works fine with Diablo-like games of course where you dump 99% of the items anyway, even if against cash.
and why does it look as un-rpg-ly as it gets?
Because i used pieces of Stalker inventory?

How does make that un-rpg-ly?

Thats a paper doll section, only done little nicer then usually in an RPG and those are bloody item icons while everything else, that console crap and parts that have no business being in the page of MY Invenotry are removed.

The POINT BEING that this is just a crude example, the concept, not the bloody finished actual inventory.

THERE ARE TABS!!!

AND you can BLOODY SCROLL THE BLOODY ITEMS! SO THERE CANNOT BE ANY CLUTTER!!!


but then again, its much easier just making empty statements without actually thinking or explaining any of them, right?
It is simply just damn confusing in comparsion with a simple list - or at least it will get once you have tons of "no or little weigth"-items in your inventory. With un-rpg-ly I simply ment "unfitting for a real C-RPG", where you usually get many unique items that just get lost in the tons of other items - tab or no.
As I wrote (several time if I am not mistaken) such an inventory is great for Diablo-like games where you get tons of items you just sell away. But I hate searching for 1x1 slot items in such a mess - it is just easier to find in a list you just scroll down.
This all counts for me of course, and my personal preferages. No reason to throw in Captain Capslock. :mrgreen:
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 6th, 2013, 7:23 pm

All the games that i have played and that use items lists are the ones that are most confusing and most annoying, cluttered with crap items and enraging to search through.

I dont see why there will be tons of little items in this game at all.
If the items are separated by their utility through tabs i cannot see how that would make it difficult to scroll through.

And who says items need to be 1 x 1 in size?

Its not easier to find such items in the list at all, anyway.
If the game has hundreds and hundreds of small inconsequential filler items, then that just creates humongous, absolutely horrible looking long lists. Spreadsheets miles long.
Just like Skyrim or facepalm 3 did.


Icons have the advantage of being visually clear and so can present any difference between two similar or same items to the player at the glance. And they do feel more like actual objects you actually use, then a list which just looks like a... list.

If the companion portraits section, or "slab" - and that horrible character screen is moved into the character window, instead of cluttering the inventory screen, then there is more then enough place for any additional info or stats that the player might need to see.


Additionally, the only possible reason for lists are plans to get the game to consoles. or mobiles, tablets and whatnot.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by sparkee666 » June 6th, 2013, 7:36 pm

I'm starting to like the second screen with the rag doll on it you can derive so much function from something like that. it keeps the 3d seperate from the 2d icons displayed. and it can also come out when other tabs are selected I can see this becoming very functional.
Last edited by sparkee666 on June 6th, 2013, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Drool » June 6th, 2013, 8:48 pm

Hiver wrote:And who says items need to be 1 x 1 in size?
The only thing worse than 1x1 items in a grid is inventory tetris.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Zombra » June 6th, 2013, 9:19 pm

Hiver wrote:Additionally, the only possible reason for lists are plans to get the game to consoles. or mobiles, tablets and whatnot.
Right. And the only reason so many of us support lists over icons is because we are all secretly console monkeys. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by ffordesoon » June 6th, 2013, 9:27 pm

@Hiver:

That looks horrendous.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
As a poster, I speak only for myself. PM me if you have any problems with the way I moderate.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Woolfe » June 6th, 2013, 10:13 pm

Hiver wrote:All the games that i have played and that use items lists are the ones that are most confusing and most annoying, cluttered with crap items and enraging to search through.
Is this an issue with the list? Or is it an issue with the contents of the game. I put it to you that a game like Oblivion would be just as cluttered and confusing in your grid as in a list.
Hiver wrote:Additionally, the only possible reason for lists are plans to get the game to consoles. or mobiles, tablets and whatnot.
Speak for yourself. I happen to like lists because they give me more information right there in front of me. I don't have to "select" an item to get all the info, I can see small amounts of detail at a glance. I also prefer lists because they are specific. IE
Ak47 - Chinese Variant - is obvious
Whilst 2 images of ak47 one with a red stock the other with a brown are not.
(That was a stupid example by the way but indicative of the sort of thing I mean)

And what is worse about your comment aside from the whole ridiculous us vs them Console vs PC rubbish. Is that it simply isn't the case. Wasteland itself had lists. All the SSi DnD games had lists etc etc etc... It is not a Console vs PC thing at all.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by ffordesoon » June 6th, 2013, 10:33 pm

@Woolfe:

To be fair to him, most of the cRPGs with list-based inventories come from before the mouse was taken seriously as an input device.

I agree with you, I'm just saying.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Woolfe » June 7th, 2013, 12:03 am

ffordesoon wrote:@Woolfe:

To be fair to him, most of the cRPGs with list-based inventories come from before the mouse was taken seriously as an input device.

I agree with you, I'm just saying.
Doesn't make his argument any less ridiculous.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by tomatpaburk » June 7th, 2013, 1:38 am

Hiver wrote:Additionally, the only possible reason for lists are plans to get the game to consoles. or mobiles, tablets and whatnot.
Yes this is indeed a ridiculous statement since is clearly a opinion hes stating and not a fact. But its not any less ridiculous then.
Grohal wrote:The inventory looks as un-rpg-ly as it gets. And if I imanage this inventory with 3 or 4 times as many items... it just sucks. Works fine with Diablo-like games of course where you dump 99% of the items anyway, even if against cash.

Since again its just a opinion and not based in fact, as there have been multiple "true" RPGs that uses grid based inventory.

To me, the whole discussion on list vs grid boils down to two things. First its a personal preference on if you prefer visual "icon" based feedback over "text" based feedback from your inventory, and the secound is if you enjoy micromanaging your inventory or prefer it to sort itself on its own.

These are the fundamental differences that separate the people who prefer one system over the other, since both systems have their pros and cons, as been listed so many times before.

Since its not lack of information that fuels this argument, but personal preferences, there can be no winning argument.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Woolfe » June 7th, 2013, 3:05 am

tomatpaburk wrote: Since its not lack of information that fuels this argument, but personal preferences, there can be no winning argument.
Be aware the ONLY part of his argument I am calling ridiculous is this part.
Hiver wrote:Additionally, the only possible reason for lists are plans to get the game to consoles. or mobiles, tablets and whatnot.
I am not totally against his other arguments indeed I think the seperate character sheet might be something worthwhile to discuss. I don't think the grid is as good as the list in this particular case. Based on my knowledge of the previous game, and my preferences based on what has been shown thus far.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by kopi » June 7th, 2013, 9:24 am

The weapons are out of proportion. They are too big.

Also, I would prefer either a grid-like inventory(tetris) or at least a list with rendered items instead of icons.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Slim_Jim » June 7th, 2013, 10:03 am

Two camps (at least), long discussion, and (alas) sometimes it becomes a bit too expressive and incorrect. Besides, when I want to support a post I like, I don't have much to say except 'I like it, way to go!', which actually would be just a small change. Why don't we ask for a poll/survey with grid vs list vs something else, so we could express our opinion and terminate this exhausting discussion.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 7th, 2013, 10:45 am

Unfortunately i opened this page while i was not logged in, which resulted in me seeing a couple posts by a few people that are on my ignore list. As ever, they can produce only their opinion about the "looks" of things. Shallow, cheap and worthless.

dont bother replying or "opining" to my posts in the future. I dont read that and ill make sure never to open these pages while not logged in again.
I thought you few people understood how worthless i consider you and your posts and that i put you on ignore since the last time.

also,
the grid does not have to include inventory tetris.
The items can be limited only by their weight. Not by their size, while the grid itself can be infinitely big or long and scrollable.


Wolfe,

I do speak for myself. Unlike many others.
And i very well know there is no chance in hell inXile will change anything because of me.
So you can relax.

The consolized inventory will remain.

And the reasons i say this is:

1. Unity announcement about their deal with next "gen" of consoles,
- supported by the fact that both will run on AMD hardware-

2. The fact that all consolized games of several last years have used these horrible lists.

3. Literally no discussion about anything from the InXile which "listens" but does not talk with its fanbase, except through gaming media intermediaries and PR orchestrated "revelations".
(yeah well, Inxile... dont expect just everyone to be happy about it, mkay?)

4. Literally no explanation on exactly how regular item icons and grid are "limiting". They just say its limiting and dont explain how or why. While anyone sane knows there is nothing limiting there at all.

5. The reason there are lists is not that original game did it. If it was so they would say so. They did not.
(PR failure InXile... PR failure...)

- Now, i dont really mind or wouldnt mind if they went and made console version or tablet or mobile version of the game. Thats fine. What i dislike is changing the design of the PC version to make the porting easier in the near future.

As for your preference of lists... - i really dont care about your personal preferences.
As much as you dont care about mine.

I would prefer not to look at spreadsheets of items when i open the inventory. I would prefer to look at items themselves and to handle items, not lists of them.
If they could do anything as good looking as Stalker item icons it would be great.

The weapons are also too big which looks cheap, childish and ridiculous.
And worst of all - it is not necessary.

From the looks of it all it just looks like they are shooting for the visual mix of Facepalm 3 and maybe new Xcom.
Which is completely unnecessary and horrible.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by namelessxx » June 7th, 2013, 12:15 pm

Hiver wrote:Unfortunately i opened this page while i was not logged in, which resulted in me seeing a couple posts by a few people that are on my ignore list. As ever, they can produce only their opinion about the "looks" of things. Shallow, cheap and worthless.

dont bother replying or "opining" to my posts in the future. I dont read that and ill make sure never to open these pages while not logged in again.
I thought you few people understood how worthless i consider you and your posts and that i put you on ignore since the last time.
cool story brah.

And i thought i was a PC Elitist :roll:
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by paultakeda » June 7th, 2013, 12:35 pm

Hiver wrote: The items can be limited only by their weight. Not by their size, while the grid itself can be infinitely big or long and scrollable.
Ah, so much like DDO. Yeah, I despise that inventory system. You have to hover over everything just to make a choice about something.

A list with key metrics in columns works much better when the potential variety of similar utility/look items is rather large.

Grid inventory is fine when variety is limited and in particular when encumbrance is tetris-based. Otherwise, a list is much more functional.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 7th, 2013, 2:07 pm

You dont need to hover. You can just click on an item and get all the info you need on the side in that space that becomes available when the companion portraits slab/section gets removed.

There is no tetris involved. At all.

Plus, if items are sorted by their kind or utility, like for example if medicine, weapons, explosives, tech, and whatever else there is, gets into their own "tab".
Plus there are favorites.

namelessxx wrote:
Hiver wrote:Unfortunately i opened this page while i was not logged in, which resulted in me seeing a couple posts by a few people that are on my ignore list. As ever, they can produce only their opinion about the "looks" of things. Shallow, cheap and worthless.

dont bother replying or "opining" to my posts in the future. I dont read that and ill make sure never to open these pages while not logged in again.
I thought you few people understood how worthless i consider you and your posts and that i put you on ignore since the last time.
cool story brah.
Indeed it is.
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.c ... =23&t=2920

so ... very... cool.

And i thought i was a PC Elitist :roll:
nah, that would be me. roll over.

:twisted:

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by paultakeda » June 7th, 2013, 2:35 pm

Hiver wrote:You dont need to hover. You can just click on an item and get all the info you need on the side in that space that becomes available when the companion portraits slab/section gets removed.
This still means that key metrics remain hidden when they could be shown on a list compared with other related/similar items.
Hiver wrote: There is no tetris involved. At all.
I know. I am stating that if there is a grid I automatically prefer that the grid is there for tetris-style encumbrance.
Hiver wrote: Plus, if items are sorted by their kind or utility, like for example if medicine, weapons, explosives, tech, and whatever else there is, gets into their own "tab".
Plus there are favorites.
So I'll have a tab with the appearance of a drug store: a wall of medkits, doctor's bags and other stuff, but I won't know what they all do such that they are distinct enough to have their own icon (assuming each icon can represent multiples). Which is the +2 doctor's bag versus the +3? You plan to add little numbers and letters as header/footer tags on the icon, along with the count? I'll have to browse them like I do a pharmacy aisle, and that's going to be annoying compared to a list.

Once you have grids you have other issues. A grid is usually finite. As you say, the grid does not describe encumbrance and the items can have mass/weight/volume metrics instead. Imagine the tab for, say, the different kinds of ammunition. What if the grid in one tab cannot contain all the possibilities? Do you split it into two tabs? Does the grid start to grow beyond the UI? The UI is variable -- folks will have a variety of resolutions here. Does the grid adapt and grow per tab to fill a % of the space or is it finite, say limited to 20x20? That's going to be a tiny 20x20 or a large 20x20 depending on the resolution, and the % way means scaling the icons.

It's getting clunky already.

I like grids when items are simplified, abstracted even. WL2 is not going to have this: it is going to be fairly involved. This means a list.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 7th, 2013, 2:49 pm

errmm...

crap.


first - no. nothing needs to be like that paultakeda.

second... damn it... i just saw the actual video from Inxile for the first time. All this time ive been going on screenshots. because my internets was crappy.

The things arent as bad as they seemed.
still ... several of my points will stand, regardless, but the overall reaction will be much less antagonistic.

but, i have 13 minutes to catch a bus so i have to run.
Things to do and distant cities to reach by morning.

:scrams:

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