Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Zombra » June 4th, 2013, 7:51 pm

Isn't the icon argument one guy? :?
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Lucius » June 4th, 2013, 8:06 pm

Zombra wrote:Isn't the icon argument one guy? :?
Is it? Idk, I haven't been paying that close attention. I thought it's brought up numerous times since the beginning of the thread, just later in the thread had it kinda pushed everything else aside so I guess I assumed.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Drool » June 4th, 2013, 8:41 pm

tomatpaburk wrote:For example Skyrim where you run around with 60 different types of potions, maybe another 60 crafting items or misc gear and 10 different weapons.
To be fair, Skyrim also had sorting. I rarely had to look to hard to find anything important. The biggest mess was keys, but those were weightless, so I rarely needed to look there.

However, again, Bethesda games appeal to the inner packrat. That's why there's a dozen different kinds of plates you can pick up. Wasteland was much more limited. Here's the item list. 61 items. Even assuming that list is missing a couple items, we're not looking at more than, say, 70. Total. You could easily never bother with 20-30 of those items. Not counting weapons, ammo, and armor, only about 15 are required to beat the game. A character in Wasteland could carry 30 items. I don't have a screenshot of the inventory handy, but the skill list looked pretty much the same (just pretend the LVL column doesn't exist):

Image

Each item took one slot. Presumably they'll be more realistic in WL2, but even with Wasteland's primative inventory system, you never had to look far for an item. Especially since you could reorder your inventory to put important keys on the first page or what-have-you. Lists can be bad when you're carrying hundreds of items and thousands exist, but if you're only carrying a dozen items, you don't need a massive grid, and only showing 8 on a page is much less of an issue.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Lusankya » June 5th, 2013, 2:54 am

Since I haven`t read all previous comments I`ll just put down my thoughts.

The overall looks I find appealing, love the animation window with the actual character displayed on the left side (btw, LOVE the outfit in the vid :D). The right side on the other hand isn`t too good i think. The weapon descriptions are too large (usage of 3-4 lines and only the center line has text; this way you get far less items per "window" which decreases the clearness of the entire inventory -> bad Elder Scrolls memories coming back) and if you make them smaller you can get a lot more items per screen/page which helps to navigate through it quite a lot. Currently (in the video) you get 7 items per page, which is not nearly enough for my taste. Either make the descriptions smaller or use grid like inventory (has worked perfectly for me since the early 90`s... I don`t see any reason to change that.)
I especially like the detailed descriptions of the items in that small note-like thingy at the top. Exactly the kind of detail i was looking forward to in Wasteland 2. (the descriptions are the perfect place to get some humor into the game, not only through dialogue)
Weapon size relation is a bit off as previously stated. And if people are too distracted by the flashes of lightning/current they should maybe get tested for ADD. I find it a nice little detail. Neither good nor bad actually, just a fitting detail.
All in all, great update. Everything seems to be going as I`d hoped it would be.

Keep up the good work. Much appreciated.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Wile » June 5th, 2013, 3:08 am

I watched that video again and Chris said in it, that grid based inventory was deemed too limiting. He didn't, however, say why. So... Why was it too limiting?

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Grohal » June 5th, 2013, 3:55 am

Wile wrote:I watched that video again and Chris said in it, that grid based inventory was deemed too limiting. He didn't, however, say why. So... Why was it too limiting?
Grid based inv. means Diablo-like?
If so - please leave such crap out of any serious RPG-Game, it is just confusing imo.
In an action-rpg it is fine of course.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Lucius » June 5th, 2013, 6:04 am

Drool wrote:
tomatpaburk wrote:However, again, Bethesda games appeal to the inner packrat. That's why there's a dozen different kinds of plates you can pick up. Wasteland was much more limited. Here's the item list. 61 items. Even assuming that list is missing a couple items, we're not looking at more than, say, 70. Total.
I think your number is off for Wasteland 2. It appears we will have more armor types, more weapons, plus armor slots, head, chest, legs, as opposed to just a single piece. We will also have more ammo types as the video showed FMJ and JHP varieties of ammo. There are also weapon "parts" for crafting. Keeping that in mind, I think we're going to have quite a bit more than 70 items. Even if there are no junk items, we're probably looking at 150, maybe significantly more.

That said, I don't think your point is off. We are not going to have 1000s of items. The lists are set up with categories and are sortable. With the weight system, it's unlikely we will be carrying huge number of guns or armor. The crafting list could get bloated though, but there is an entire crafting menu we haven't seen yet, so even that might not be an issue.

I think those demanding grid inventories and saying list inventories are inferior for all purposes are really fooling themselves and aren't thinking about it rationally.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Jukkahvi » June 5th, 2013, 6:35 am

Hey guys.

We can only discuss things rationally if we keep all things in consideration. I like grid and unique icons for stuff. But I can play games with list inventory aswell. Every system has its pros and cons. It's all about what the game wants to focus with its inventory.

List: Easy to navigate. Sort and evaluate lots of information.
Downside: It's impersonal. Makes me feel like I need to hoard stuff. Disconnects characters from their inventory.

Grids: Items become more personal. Items need to be investigated more for their stats. Shows more what the item looks in invetory alongside other items. Can't keep on hoarding every bottle and apple. Encourages more decisions on what player finds most important for survival. Might even have to leave really valuable items behind.
Downside: All the above.

It all comes to down to what the game wants to encourage with its inventory. Thinking? Accessability? There's is no one size fits all.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by tomatpaburk » June 5th, 2013, 7:04 am

Lucius wrote: That said, I don't think your point is off. We are not going to have 1000s of items. The lists are set up with categories and are sortable. With the weight system, it's unlikely we will be carrying huge number of guns or armor. The crafting list could get bloated though, but there is an entire crafting menu we haven't seen yet, so even that might not be an issue.
Indeed, Wasteland 2's list may not suffer the problems that Skyrim inventory did since as been said, they had 5 different types of plates.

As for the crafting it might, as you said, be the one place where the list can get bogged down in similar items. Hopefully the crafting system will be "slightly" automated to avoid unnecessary searching for subparts in a list of items, then drag and drop that specific part into the right slot before pressing "craft".

Personally I hope its a system where you chose from a list of available/known schematics, and it will tell you what parts it will use from your inventory and what is missing. Maybe with one special slot for "Advanced" parts that is completely optional, and only usable to create really custom stuff like night vision scopes and such.
A workable example is the crafting system from RAGE Image


It will be very interesting to see what you have cooked up. More updates FTW!
( By the way, being able to craft sentry guns and temporary mechanized helpers would be awesome! :D )

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Son of Max » June 5th, 2013, 5:40 pm

This last update was a little brisk, but from what I saw, I like it. It looks great and easy to use, and there's something to be said for being able to send out a machine gun toting mariachi if you wish.

Oh, and the electric current part?

Loved it.

Keep up the good work, guys. 8-)
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Drool » June 5th, 2013, 11:20 pm

Grohal wrote:Grid based inv. means Diablo-like?
Yeah. Diablo, World of Warcraft, Dues Ex, XCom (the originals)...
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Crosmando » June 6th, 2013, 12:25 am

Perhaps part of the reason for the list is cost? 2D art at high-definition is expensive to commission, even more so if every item in the game needs to be drawn.

Because I can't see how a grid is "limiting", they could just add a scroll option.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Grohal » June 6th, 2013, 3:50 am

Crosmando wrote:Perhaps part of the reason for the list is cost? 2D art at high-definition is expensive to commission, even more so if every item in the game needs to be drawn.

Because I can't see how a grid is "limiting", they could just add a scroll option.
It is a mess - to scroll down a list is ok with me, but to scroll down a grid and look from left to right in search of a 1x1-slot-item ist just a pain in the... behind.
Don't get me wrong, such an iventory has its uses - just not in a real RPG.
As it is with the weigth-limit, we won't have to scroll far down anyway I'd guess. I don't think every party-member will carry 5 armors and like two dozen weapons. :mrgreen:
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Crosmando » June 6th, 2013, 4:53 am

Grohal wrote:
Crosmando wrote:Perhaps part of the reason for the list is cost? 2D art at high-definition is expensive to commission, even more so if every item in the game needs to be drawn.

Because I can't see how a grid is "limiting", they could just add a scroll option.
It is a mess - to scroll down a list is ok with me, but to scroll down a grid and look from left to right in search of a 1x1-slot-item ist just a pain in the... behind.
Don't get me wrong, such an iventory has its uses - just not in a real RPG.
As it is with the weigth-limit, we won't have to scroll far down anyway I'd guess. I don't think every party-member will carry 5 armors and like two dozen weapons. :mrgreen:
They could use tabs in addition to the grid though, as in "Small Arms", "Heavy Arms", "Ammunition" etc to sort by.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by TΛPETRVE » June 6th, 2013, 5:00 am

That, by the way, is what makes the Dark Souls inventory such an immense pain in the arse and the Demon's Souls inventory infinitely superior (albeit by no means perfect). The latter has several different tabs for weapon types and armour parts (albeit Items are all packed up in one). Dark Souls on the other hand sorts everything in a single column, which is infuriating even for console players.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 6th, 2013, 9:37 am

thumbnail version:

Image

The screen with the character 3D model and the section with companion portraits go into the character screen. NOT into MY inventory.

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Zombra » June 6th, 2013, 9:42 am

Blech. No offense, but blech.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Grohal » June 6th, 2013, 9:52 am

Hiver wrote:thumbnail version:

Image

The screen with the character 3D model and the section with companion portraits go into the character screen. NOT into MY inventory.
The inventory looks as un-rpg-ly as it gets. And if I imanage this inventory with 3 or 4 times as many items... it just sucks. Works fine with Diablo-like games of course where you dump 99% of the items anyway, even if against cash.
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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Hiver » June 6th, 2013, 9:57 am

Grohal wrote: The inventory looks as un-rpg-ly as it gets. And if I imanage this inventory with 3 or 4 times as many items... it just sucks. Works fine with Diablo-like games of course where you dump 99% of the items anyway, even if against cash.
and why does it look as un-rpg-ly as it gets?
Because i used pieces of Stalker inventory?

How does make that un-rpg-ly?

Thats a paper doll section, only done little nicer then usually in an RPG and those are bloody item icons while everything else, that console crap and parts that have no business being in the page of MY Invenotry are removed.

The POINT BEING that this is just a crude example, the concept, not the bloody finished actual inventory.

THERE ARE TABS!!!

AND you can BLOODY SCROLL THE BLOODY ITEMS! SO THERE CANNOT BE ANY CLUTTER!!!


but then again, its much easier just making empty statements without actually thinking or explaining any of them, right?

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Re: Update 29: How many squeezins can I fit in my bag?

Post by Inca » June 6th, 2013, 11:17 am

I just love the animated paper doll in the video. This is 60% for my thumbs up for this inventory system. I feel it would go a long way to bond the player to the characters.
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