About cutscenes, and how you can help

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under_dog
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by under_dog » May 13th, 2013, 3:50 pm

I know it's kind of trend these days, bt going retro seems the way to do so without looking cheap.

something like the WC of olds :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qYItb4g6qg

I can picture the first few image being 8 bit scenes to sum up what is canon and then would comme the last 8 bit scene off the outro for WL1, fading into a "newly" (but still old school) version of it, with maybe a "welcome to the future" sub title or something...
Anyhow i think an interlaced FMV would give the nice retro feel, while somehow being in tune with the world depicted

These kind of work tend to be incredibly cheap (read cheaper than 15 years ago) to do and look well in the hand of the good director

now i don't know any director located in the US of A :/

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by TΛPETRVE » May 13th, 2013, 3:51 pm

Woolfe wrote:I like History lessons. It draws me into the story gives me a sense of the world. Doesn't have to be deep tho. Just enough to understand what's going on.
With history lessons, I mean the dry and dull retelling of events. A retrospect of something as outlandish as the proceedings in Wasteland shouldn't be presented as a scientific lecture or even a campfire story. That would be a disservice to the subject matter.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by under_dog » May 13th, 2013, 3:55 pm

Another exemple of the kind of feel i'm talking about :

under a killing moon intro :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YICPKh7Tl8g

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by sparkee666 » May 13th, 2013, 4:22 pm

A military style presentation, One coupled with some old classified nuclear footage of the base conchise explosion, perhaps a Vietnam style helicopter shots overlapped with slide projector footage of raiders, wasteland oddities and land marks; stuff a newly recruited ranger should know about before heading out into the dangers of the wastes, this would be a perfect place to couple photos and film in. A kind of eighties low grade film resolution with mono type and dot matrix type on the slides and film. I would like some colour to everything but it should look washed-out and black with age and radiation.

Perhaps more of a story style prolog to accompany the military mission presentation. I kind of liked what you did with the voices in the gameplay footage perhaps something like that could be carried through to other scenes.

I'll try to edit this post I would like to write something a little more expansive.

EDIT: More stuff: As the radiation clears the rangers are starting to pick up radio signals further away, and it is more frightening than ever. The radio will pop and voices of the various beginning game factions and will make themselves known, whatever things you see fit to put in. Any further narration would be done by a ranger but over the radio to fill in the rest of the narrative or where it makes sense.

As the static on the radio pops with various talks a military style briefing is running on the screen that ties in with what’s going on with the radio. Some old classified nuclear footage of the base conchise explosion and thing that shouldn’t be known in great detail by civilians perhaps a Vietnam style helicopter shots overlapped with slide projector footage and “artists interpretations” of raiders, wasteland oddities and land marks, stuff a newly recruited ranger should know about before heading out into the dangers of the wastes, this would be a perfect place to couple photos and film together.

A kind of eighties low grade film resolution with mono and dot matrix type on the slides and film. I would like some colour to everything but it should look washed-out and black with age and radiation. Because this is for new rangers and not scientists and scholars details of the past game will not be super detailed and full of jargon but the story of the old rangers should be told.

Even though the presentation is done up like a military video with slides the feel should be handled like a narrative and not with a dry military lesson. Since the recruits are customisable they shouldn’t be included in the cut scenes.

I’m not a big fan of the comic pages. I saw something done like that on FLCL, The Maxx, and The Watchmen. I’m pretty sure I could find video game examples. Besides when I think of what most people seem to be proposing I think of the FC3 trailer, but instead of the eighties style cartoon it’s a comic style.
Last edited by sparkee666 on May 13th, 2013, 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Lucius » May 13th, 2013, 4:27 pm

john irwin finster wrote:As for using the footage from the wasteland weekend, I'm not a big fan of mixing live action video in games, I've never seen it done well- unless, like you said, individual frames are taken and stylized.
I'm not a fan either. It worked well in Homefront though, but the context made a lot of sense.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Ronin73 » May 13th, 2013, 4:28 pm

It will probably be cheesy to some, but I would like to see some text input (with sound effects!) the same way the C64 Wasteland introduction did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5lmL7yNC9Y
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by TΛPETRVE » May 13th, 2013, 4:35 pm

sparkee666 wrote:A military style presentation, One coupled with some old classified nuclear footage of the base conchise explosion, perhaps a Vietnam style helicopter shots overlapped with slide projector footage of raiders, wasteland oddities and land marks; stuff a newly recruited ranger should know about before heading out into the dangers of the wastes, this would be a perfect place to couple photos and film in. A kind of eighties low grade film resolution with mono type and dot matrix type on the slides and film. I would like some colour to everything but it should look washed-out and black with age and radiation.
Couple that with a few comic-book-style animatics and you got my vote. But keep the scientific stuff short.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by john irwin finster » May 13th, 2013, 5:53 pm

TΛPETRVE wrote:I like History lessons. It draws me into the story gives me a sense of the world. Doesn't have to be deep tho. Just enough to understand what's going on.
Same here, and the history of this game is so compelling- who wouldn't want to know how the world ends?

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Woolfe » May 13th, 2013, 6:19 pm

TΛPETRVE wrote:
Woolfe wrote:I like History lessons. It draws me into the story gives me a sense of the world. Doesn't have to be deep tho. Just enough to understand what's going on.
With history lessons, I mean the dry and dull retelling of events. A retrospect of something as outlandish as the proceedings in Wasteland shouldn't be presented as a scientific lecture or even a campfire story. That would be a disservice to the subject matter.
Yeah fair enough, I certainly wasn't suggesting that sort of thing.

But some key points of the previous should probably be there. Glossed over perhaps, but there, so that you can find out more through the play through.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Damoriel » May 13th, 2013, 6:19 pm

I’ll need to give more thought to what I’d want in the ending before I comment on it, but I had some ideas for the intro I’ll mention.

The intro is our four rangers sitting in on a briefing being given by Snake Vargas. I don’t know the exact level of technology the devs will make available to Ranger HQ, but I was thinking the briefing could utilize an old slide projector for the visual and because it has that iconic “Click-Clack” when changing slides. The slides themselves would be photos taken of known settlements like the Ag Center, Highpool, Quartz, etc., with commentary from Snake over the background. He might also mention the food-for-protection arrangement they have with the Ag center—it reinforces the NPC dialogue we saw during the earlier released gameplay video.

If you’re trying to infuse some humor, maybe one of the slides could be a badly sketched drawing of an enemy that was too fast to be photographed or the lighting conditions were too poor to capture, and the rangers could bust Snake’s balls for his “Awesome shading skills.” Or maybe the offending slide could be an innocuous photo of one of the bunnies Snake encountered in the Ag center. Cue chuckling from our four youngster Rangers. Then the slide transitions to a photo of a pack of them ripping up one of the farmers amid the rows of oversized vegetation. The laughter dies.

Snake could comment to the effect of “You have to keep in mind that not everything is as it appears out there in the wastes. And that to most things living in it, you’re not Rangers, you’re food. Or worse,”

*Slide transitions to a photo taken of a humanoid cyborg*

“Raw materials.”

The movie “Aliens” effectively portrayed the shock and horror the colonial marines experienced during their first encounter with the xenomorphs by foreshadowing it with their cavalier attitude toward them during their pre-mission briefing given by Ripley, who was speaking from personal experience.
http://youtu.be/lR7b6AWaMms

I think it would be cool at one point during the briefing to show a photo on Snake’s desk of his younger self with Thrasher, Angela, and Razor before they set out on their mission. At the end of the briefing, our own rangers get their picture taken, and the camera shows a film developing effect, except instead of the picture developing into our four rangers posing, it develops into the Wasteland Logo.

Cue loading screen.

The less detail shown of our four rangers during the briefing, the better. More silhouettes, few or no close-ups. We’re going to be projecting the likenesses and personalities of our choosing onto them, after all.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by tuluse » May 13th, 2013, 6:47 pm

I posted this on facebook, and I'm re-posting here--a little more fleshed out.

The opening cut scene should start with EGA graphics and IBM sound music playing, then slowly morph through the ages, VGA graphics and high quality midi, higher quality 2D, crackling wav files like the first CD games had, and then end on full 3D graphics with one of Mark Morgan's tracks playing.

Sort of like what 3D Dot Heroes did, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZJ_nNAmtU. Note that the transformation happens near the end of this video so feel free to skip to around 0:50.

Alternatively, just go full non-ironic EGA graphics with midi music. I watched the c64 Wasteland intro on youtube, and it reminded me a lot of the Civ 1 intro, which to this day is one of the most memorable game intros I've ever seen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGyXH4hSgUI.
Last edited by tuluse on May 13th, 2013, 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Dork Mage » May 13th, 2013, 6:48 pm

Damoriel wrote:I’ll need to give more thought to what I’d want in the ending before I comment on it, but I had some ideas for the intro I’ll mention.

The intro is our four rangers sitting in on a briefing being given by Snake Vargas. I don’t know the exact level of technology the devs will make available to Ranger HQ, but I was thinking the briefing could utilize an old slide projector for the visual and because it has that iconic “Click-Clack” when changing slides. The slides themselves would be photos taken of known settlements like the Ag Center, Highpool, Quartz, etc., with commentary from Snake over the background. He might also mention the food-for-protection arrangement they have with the Ag center—it reinforces the NPC dialogue we saw during the earlier released gameplay video.
Had pretty much the same idea.

Have the duty officer speaking off to one side:
Well recruts, before I send you on your first real mission let me give a run down on our latest intel and how it fits in with our past.

Show slide/movie/mixed-media presentation with duty officer voice-over.

To emphasize that rangers aren't always ideal, have a jaded, seasoned ranger on the other side voice sarcastic comments:

Hell Cap, anyone who can see shit coming would see the <the discussed faction> was trouble.

Come on Cap, it's a real party out there. A real roasting shindig. I just hope we ain't the ones on the menu.

We don't see any of the rangers, just hear their voices and see the slide show.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Lucius » May 13th, 2013, 7:54 pm

tuluse wrote:The opening cut scene should start with EGA graphics and IBM sound music playing, then slowly morph through the ages, VGA graphics and high quality midi, higher quality 2D, crackling wav files like the first CD games had, and then end on full 3D graphics with one of Mark Morgan's track's playing.
This would be great fan service but I don't think that's the best way to go. There is no reason to highlight this is a sequel to an old game in an opening cut scene. The scene should tell the story for those who haven't played; not the story of the franchise. EGA graphics and IBM sound really has nothing to do with the Wasteland universe and I don't think the game needs to focus on anything but the universe of Wasteland.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Woolfe » May 13th, 2013, 8:15 pm

Lucius wrote:
tuluse wrote:The opening cut scene should start with EGA graphics and IBM sound music playing, then slowly morph through the ages, VGA graphics and high quality midi, higher quality 2D, crackling wav files like the first CD games had, and then end on full 3D graphics with one of Mark Morgan's track's playing.
This would be great fan service but I don't think that's the best way to go. There is no reason to highlight this is a sequel to an old game in an opening cut scene. The scene should tell the story for those who haven't played; not the story of the franchise. EGA graphics and IBM sound really has nothing to do with the Wasteland universe and I don't think the game needs to focus on anything but the universe of Wasteland.
Yeah I'd much prefer any ref to the old game to be an ingame easter egg somewhere... with clues that only those who played the original would get. Maybe in a ladies toilet ;)
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Ronin73 » May 13th, 2013, 8:24 pm

The only other thing I will add is whatever cutscenes go into the game, make sure that the option is there for them to be skipped.
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Crosmando » May 13th, 2013, 8:37 pm

Might be a controversial opinion, but why do you need an intro cut-scene at all. Why not just have the player create their party and go straight to Ranger HQ in the game. As for the history between Wasteland and Wasteland 2, why not add some keywords to friendly Ranger NPC's in the HQ, as in "history of the rangers" or something, and they would tell you some information, or perhaps there could be a computer or files lying around in the Ranger HQ which you could pick up and read, detailing events between etc.

I know it was partially enforced by the technical limitations of the time, but I liked how in old cRPG's you just created your party and BAM straight into the world, no explanation or the game telling you what's happened. There's no reason not to have that information lying around for the player to seek out. Kinda like how in WL1 you could find that clue in Highpool if you used lockpick inside the dorms building.

As for a end movie, yeah that would be a good idea.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Lazy Nomad » May 13th, 2013, 8:40 pm

Is it really necessary to have a history lesson in the intro? Won't there be plenty of that in the game itself? Why not have the intro, well, introduce you to the feel of the world you're about to enter. Have a scene that tells you "Yeah, it's that kind of world" and maybe give a small preview of the things you're about to see in a very brief and concise scene.

I see something like we see the back of a hooded and cloaked scav digging through some trash during night. The camera focuses on the objects the scav picks up: a Ranger Badge, a Visa Card, a tribal necklace of teeth hanging off of a Geiger counter (primitive right next to high tech, get it?), a bottle of Snake Squeezins, stuff like that. Then, the scav seems to notice that someone's watching it and it turns around. DUN DUN DUUUN, it's a cyborg! Screen goes black, cue Wasteland 2 title.

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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Son of Max » May 13th, 2013, 8:43 pm

Opening cutscene that sets up the history of the rangers including the events of Wasteland
This could be done quite easily and inexpensively with a simple montage (with narration) of either computer rendered stills or hand drawn stills illustrating what are considered to be, by the devs, key (and perhaps relevant to the sequel) points from the earliest days of the formation of The Desert Rangers through to the conclusion of Wasteland:

The Army Engineers in the desert, building their transport bridges
The outbreak of the war
The engineers taking over the prison
The expulsion of the prisoners
The eventual congregation of engineers and nearby survivalists to form some sort of council
The council establishing the prison as Ranger Center and the formation of The Desert Rangers as an organization
Early Ranger battles with outlaws, bandits and a still of Ranger Center repulsing an attack by the expelled criminals 'seeking to reclaim what was 'rightfully theirs'.
Rangers establishing first contacts with Highpool, The Rail Nomads and The Ag Station
A group of Rangers (and a few distinguished NPC's from the original) in the course of several tasks/missions from the original
A brief explanation of The Guardians of The Old Order and their citadel
The Rangers (and NPCs) assault on The Guardian Citadel and the defeat of The Guardians
Base Cochise and it's destruction
Perhaps a little on 'The Aftermath'; the period after Cochise was destroyed and the effects the course of events in the first game have had on the 'known world' of the Desert Rangers: Highpool, Ag Station, Nomads, The Mine, Savage Village, Quartz, Needles, Vegas, Darwin, Sleeper 1, The Guardian Citadel and how things have changed (for better or for worse) in those places
The present day state of The Rangers and the little patch of earth they call home and those strange radio signals and transmissions hinted at by the narrator in the game play preview and Ranger Command's reaction to it

A scene as part of our closing sequences and perhaps one mid-game cutscene.
Can't help you guys there. Don't know anything about the mid-game or how the whole thing pans out.

Montages would work well for those too, I would suppose.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Drool » May 13th, 2013, 9:07 pm

Damoriel wrote:The intro is our four rangers sitting in on a briefing being given by Snake Vargas.
This is a nice thought, but runs the risk all exposition does: "Allow me to loudly talk about things we both already know." If he's teach a class of new recruits, or giving an interview, that could work.

As for the style... I dunno. For some reason, I keep thinking of the backstory at the beginning of Wizards. It was pretty much all static images, but they were detailed and stylized enough that it worked.

The intro cut scene should probably involve the Citadel Station and the nuclear war; much like the C64 version did, but not the C64's graphics -- just that level of depth. Gloss over the next 70+ years and give a brief recounting of the first game, and then the 15 years between the games. So you're essentially establishing the world with the nuclear war stuff, giving people the canon ending for the first game (one assumes you didn't slaughter Bobby and you did kill Freddy), and explaining what happened between games. It certainly doesn't need to be long, but that middle section, the canon endings, will be something players of the original are craving and should certainly be included.

Thinking more on it, having it be part of a briefing or history class for new recruits could work pretty well.

Edit: depending on the length of time being spent in each location, the mid-game cut scene would probably make the most sense for the transition from Nevada to California.
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Re: About cutscenes, and how you can help

Post by Andux » May 13th, 2013, 9:09 pm

Dork Mage wrote:To emphasize that rangers aren't always ideal, have a jaded, seasoned ranger on the other side voice sarcastic comments:
Bonus points: Have a small group of snarky rangers sitting in the front row, visible as MST3K-style silhouettes.

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