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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 3rd, 2015, 8:30 pm
by Zombra
Yep, I dig it Woolfe. I have the same concerns.

Getting ready to start shooting everything in the eyes. :(

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 3rd, 2015, 8:57 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
Ya, I have similar concerns.

The upside though, perks will add meaningful progression and the feeling of actually going somewhere with your characters. Which vanilla WL2 barely had at all. Skill checks increase fairly linearly as you punch through the content, which made the progression very undwherelming. WL2 never, ever feels like you're improving. It always feels like the game is out to get you, and you're constantly fighting an uphill battle against the skill checks.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 3rd, 2015, 10:06 pm
by Woolfe
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Ya, I have similar concerns.

The upside though, perks will add meaningful progression and the feeling of actually going somewhere with your characters. Which vanilla WL2 barely had at all. Skill checks increase fairly linearly as you punch through the content, which made the progression very undwherelming. WL2 never, ever feels like you're improving. It always feels like the game is out to get you, and you're constantly fighting an uphill battle against the skill checks.
I don't get that. I always felt like my characters were improving. I mean every level was extra skill points, and a choice of where to apply them, or to save them etc. Just because I didn't get some choice of some amazing ability to "scratch my arse when hanging upside down with both arms tied" or the ability to "commune with the spirits of long dead accountants", it didn't make the level up any less important. At level up I always tried to do the needy asap, and get those extra points assigned.

Oh sure I also felt like the game was out to get me... but that's cause sometimes it was. But in the areas I was specialised in.. No worries, I could handle that(usually).

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 3rd, 2015, 10:47 pm
by Zombra
Agree with Woolfe, progression doesn't feel hollow to me either. The only part that feels "off" to me as it is is the disassociation of stats and skills.

But! I hope Perks will be fun and replete with interesting decisions.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 12:40 am
by -Archangel-
Well WL2 had a problem of needing to save skill points to advance your main skills. So often leveling up felt like nothing. You would only gain a bit of HP and every few levels you would put 1 more point into lockpicking or whatever that increased the chance to open stuff by 15%.. not very exciting. Compare to Divinity: Original Sin or Shadowrun Returns (especially Dragonfall DC), it is not even close.

Now in addition to perks and quirks they did say they are overhauling the character system. I expect more changes, maybe not to leveling but I hope they attach skills to stats and make stat bonuses more interesting and balanced.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 2:31 am
by Tets
Zombra wrote:Now ... do I think inXile will have enough Perks to make the system cool? At first guess, I'll be honest ... no. New Vegas had 86 Perks to choose from for a single character, and I felt like that was a pretty good number to give me a lot of choices. But with four player characters, not to mention companions, it's astronomically unlikely that they'll be able to provide enough choices that mixing and matching party builds will be substantially unique to each playthrough. More likely they'll have a few sniper Perks, a few melee Perks, etc. and effectively create several "character classes" as you implied. Prove me wrong, guys.
You could simply reduce the amount of perks you get over the game like it was in original F & F2. So that you dont end up with 20 perks at the end of the game, but instead with 5 to 10 perks. If you play a little bit with the numbers, im sure you can easily make it that you need 2 complete play throughs to use all perks in the game at least once.
enough choices that mixing and matching party builds will be substantially unique to each playthrough
Are there now enough choices in the character system? How does adding more options reduces your choices for unique party builds? :) I understand what youre saying, but see my point above. Also you dont think outside of the box of the current character system. Maybe perks will do stuff which does something completly different from the things you can influence with the currect character system.
Zombra wrote:Getting ready to start shooting everything in the eyes. :(
Do you think this system is by nature unbalanced because it was unbalanced in fallout? I dont think so. There should be reasons to aim at other parts, depending on the enemy, your situation, the risk you want to take

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 3:20 am
by Woolfe
-Archangel- wrote:Well WL2 had a problem of needing to save skill points to advance your main skills. So often leveling up felt like nothing. You would only gain a bit of HP and every few levels you would put 1 more point into lockpicking or whatever that increased the chance to open stuff by 15%.. not very exciting. Compare to Divinity: Original Sin or Shadowrun Returns (especially Dragonfall DC), it is not even close.

Now in addition to perks and quirks they did say they are overhauling the character system. I expect more changes, maybe not to leveling but I hope they attach skills to stats and make stat bonuses more interesting and balanced.
Shrug, haven't played those two. But other games with perks... Kinda meh. Still basically just the same thing, next level oh yay I get a perk.. what to choose, hmm well my character is blah, so therefore this perk is clearly the best choice... yay decisions.

Sorry that is an exageration. Its just that people seem to attribute perks to some godly amazing thing when really its just something else to do at level up. The reality is the leveling up is just a means to an end. That end being to play the game.

Personally the "quirks" part of the comment was more interesting to me. I dare to hope they will be implementing something similar to the traits conversation we had many eons ago. Which would give character but wouldn't really affect the gameplay much. (Altho at that time the discussion was focused on NPC reactivity to traits etc, and that ship may well have sailed)
Tets wrote:You could simply reduce the amount of perks you get over the game like it was in original F & F2. So that you dont end up with 20 perks at the end of the game, but instead with 5 to 10 perks. If you play a little bit with the numbers, im sure you can easily make it that you need 2 complete play throughs to use all perks in the game at least once.
Which then compounds the whole "Must have perks". If you only get 1 perk every x levels, you better make damn sure it is the most useful one.
Tets wrote:Are there now enough choices in the character system? How does adding more options reduces your choices for unique party builds? :) I understand what youre saying, but see my point above. Also you dont think outside of the box of the current character system. Maybe perks will do stuff which does something completly different from the things you can influence with the currect character system.
I think there are. I have created 2 parties that I played for any serious length of time, both were similar but had some pretty significant differences. They played quite differently to each other. The addition of perks may reduce that variation, as in one party I had a a single focussed on lots of tech skills and a second on the rest, in the other party I had the tech skills split over all the characters. Depending on the perks, I may have ended up with the second party having similar perks to each other.
Tets wrote:Do you think this system is by nature unbalanced because it was unbalanced in fallout? I dont think so. There should be reasons to aim at other parts, depending on the enemy, your situation, the risk you want to take
Based purely on the current headshot addition, yes I think it is inherently unbalanced. Is it as bad as FO. No not even close. Is it dominating. Yes yes it is. The penalties for trying headshots are not high enough. Only the very highest skills should stand a chance at getting them regularly and only the sniper(mayeb a pistolier) should be able to do it consistently.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 3:26 am
by SagaDC
Well, that new X-Box trailer doesn't just call it a Perk system - it calls it a Perks & Quirks system, which seems to imply more than just your average Fallout-style Perk system. It seems to imply that the system will allow you to take both positive and negative character traits, possibly just during character creation. There's no guarantee that it will actually mean the character will gain perks as they level up, but could just as easily mean that the character simply chooses some positive and negative traits when they are first created, to help differentiate them from other characters in the party.

As for precision attacks, eh. I'm part of the camp that fears they'll be overpowered, so I can't say I'm all that enthusiastic about it. InXile shoved headshot attacks into the game at the last minute, and they're completely OP. That doesn't really give me a whole lot of faith that a more elaborate targeting system will be any less OP. But, on the other hand, I'm sure that there are also plenty of players who can't wait to start making targeted burst attacks to the eyeballs.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 3:55 am
by dorkboy
Can't say I'm all that impressed with SR: Dragonfall DC's perk system. The skill system for the PC is ok, and there is a lot of choice for how to build the character. Some of the perks are even marginally interesting, because they enable your character to do basic stuff like overwatch... yay.

But the CNPCs' XCOM style choose-1-of-2 perk system?
Bland. Pure bland.

And I'm not entirely sure it's just a matter of personal taste, because I really love the skill (aka perk) system in Blood Bowl.

Oh well. Looking forward to seeing what the Quirks are all about, though. :)

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:01 am
by -Archangel-
dorkboy wrote:Can't say I'm all that impressed with SR: Dragonfall DC's perk system. The skill system for the PC is ok, and there is a lot of choice for how to build the character. Some of the perks are even marginally interesting, because they enable your character to do basic stuff like overwatch... yay.

But the CNPCs' XCOM style choose-1-of-2 perk system?
Bland. Pure bland.

And I'm not entirely sure it's just a matter of personal taste, because I really love the skill (aka perk) system in Blood Bowl.

Oh well. Looking forward to seeing what the Quirks are all about, though. :)
And it is still at least one level above what WL2 offers. And overwatch is not a basic thing, I am sure police, military and special forces get a training for that. It takes concentration, and fast reflexes. Any idiot can point a gun in a direction and wait for someone, but it does not mean they are going to succeed (and that part is simulated through initiative and turn based system), but it takes training and skill to always be first to react in any situation when someone is going to come around the corner. Although in the game you the player can see around the corner and what and who is there, your characters often cannot.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:30 am
by dorkboy
@-Archangel-
There are pros and cons with both systems. Don't get me wrong, I quite like the karma-based Shadowrun system with no levels and skills and attributes all mixed up. The dialogue stat checks probably wouldn't work with a party based game, though.
But the perks are in my opinion kind of meh in the case of the PC (my opinion), and flat out bleh in the case of the CNPCs (objective truth ;) ).

I fail to see how it would be impossible to use the stats (like Reflex) to determine the success of overwatch.
You could also argue that kneeling behind a crate is not a basic action. But for some reason you aren't doing that. :|

Pretty sure this isn't something we'll agree on. ;)

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:37 am
by SagaDC
Stats can absolutely be used to determine the chance of successfully using something like overwatch. This was done in Jagged Alliance 2, where your chance of making an Interrupt Attack was determined by your Agility and Dexterity attributes.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:53 am
by -Archangel-
SagaDC wrote:Stats can absolutely be used to determine the chance of successfully using something like overwatch. This was done in Jagged Alliance 2, where your chance of making an Interrupt Attack was determined by your Agility and Dexterity attributes.
JA2 went for simulation first, WL2 and SRR don't.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:59 am
by SagaDC
-Archangel- wrote:
SagaDC wrote:Stats can absolutely be used to determine the chance of successfully using something like overwatch. This was done in Jagged Alliance 2, where your chance of making an Interrupt Attack was determined by your Agility and Dexterity attributes.
JA2 went for simulation first, WL2 and SRR don't.
Which is fine, but that doesn't preclude doing it in a game like Wasteland 2. Many (including myself) would argue that Shadowrun Return took a far too simplistic approach, when it comes to simulating the tabletop game it was based on. In the tabletop version, you compare Reaction or Initiative scores when determining who will go first, if two characters try to act at the same time (ie, an "Overwatch" situation).

And, for the record, I actually hated the Shadowrun "perk" system. Far too MMO-like for my tastes. Artificial hard-gates on basic abilities like burst-fire and overwatch, plus cooldown timers. Blech. I can buy that kind of thing on magic spells, sure, but not on shooting a gun at someone.

EDIT - For what it's worth, I actually liked both SRR and SRR:DF. But I liked them for their writing and art design, NOT for the character or gameplay mechanics. The mechanics were just something that I stomached for the sake of the other elements that I enjoyed.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 5:42 am
by IHaveHugeNick
Woolfe wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote: you're constantly fighting an uphill battle against the skill checks.
I don't get that. I always felt like my characters were improving..
I didn't. Well, not after first 10 levels or so. At the start its fine. After that, when you need to start saving skill points to progress, it always felt constipated.You'd get nothing of importance for a few levels. Then you'd finally raise that Lockpicking by 1 point, only for level of skills checks to go up shortly after, and you're back at square one.

The improvements are obviously there, but they didn't really feel meaningful enough to me.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 6:23 am
by -Archangel-
SagaDC wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:
SagaDC wrote:Stats can absolutely be used to determine the chance of successfully using something like overwatch. This was done in Jagged Alliance 2, where your chance of making an Interrupt Attack was determined by your Agility and Dexterity attributes.
JA2 went for simulation first, WL2 and SRR don't.
Which is fine, but that doesn't preclude doing it in a game like Wasteland 2. Many (including myself) would argue that Shadowrun Return took a far too simplistic approach, when it comes to simulating the tabletop game it was based on. In the tabletop version, you compare Reaction or Initiative scores when determining who will go first, if two characters try to act at the same time (ie, an "Overwatch" situation).

And, for the record, I actually hated the Shadowrun "perk" system. Far too MMO-like for my tastes. Artificial hard-gates on basic abilities like burst-fire and overwatch, plus cooldown timers. Blech. I can buy that kind of thing on magic spells, sure, but not on shooting a gun at someone.

EDIT - For what it's worth, I actually liked both SRR and SRR:DF. But I liked them for their writing and art design, NOT for the character or gameplay mechanics. The mechanics were just something that I stomached for the sake of the other elements that I enjoyed.
I am not familiar with Shadowrun rules so I don't care how they were adapted. They worked for me in the computer game. They gave me character building options that felt real unlike WL2 where you have empty levels where you save up points to raise that one skill a bit higher. Fallout 2 system with % raises was much more interesting.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 8:24 am
by SagaDC
-Archangel- wrote:They gave me character building options that felt real unlike WL2 where you have empty levels where you save up points to raise that one skill a bit higher. Fallout 2 system with % raises was much more interesting.
Honestly, I can't really disagree with this, at least. I'm not a fan of how they decided to handle the skills in WL2. There were far too many underdeveloped aspects (Barter is useless, for example, and Animal Whisperer is pretty iffy), and far too many poorly thought-out implementations.

But it's far from the only system that was clunky in the release version. That lack of follow-through is actually the main reason I'm really iffy about the new Quirks-and-Perks and Precision Shot systems. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm trying to keep my expectations low.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 8:59 am
by PiPboy
Woolfe wrote: Shrug, haven't played those two. But other games with perks... Kinda meh. Still basically just the same thing, next level oh yay I get a perk.. what to choose, hmm well my character is blah, so therefore this perk is clearly the best choice... yay decisions.

Sorry that is an exaggeration. Its just that people seem to attribute perks to some godly amazing thing when really its just something else to do at level up. The reality is the leveling up is just a means to an end. That end being to play the game.
There is a huge difference in progression between the two games.
DO:S - when you leveled up, you gained a new ability which modified your play style.
W2 - is simply a linear progression from start to finish. The leveling mechanic is simply for sake of balance and nothing more.

Leveling up should feel like your character has gained experience over the period of the game. From a normal student who can't see even what's infront of him, to a blind monk who can see everything around him.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 2:26 pm
by Tets
I hope there will be an option to speed up skill use, maybe some fast travel options between local maps and world map.. in general some features which reduce waiting time.

Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Posted: March 4th, 2015, 4:00 pm
by Rejak
PiPboy wrote:Leveling up should feel like your character has gained experience over the period of the game. From a normal student who can't see even what's infront of him, to a blind monk who can see everything around him.
Yeah, but it doesn't feel like that. The game is old-school in an unfortunate way, in that challenges to be overcome level up at exactly the same rate your characters are expected to level up. The only way you feel uber is if you've dumped a lot more points into a certain skill than the developers required you to at that point in the game, or if you revisit lower level areas to do all the things you skipped on the first pass. If your progression is at the expected rate then the linear challenge to linear skill progression rate makes the game seem very grindy for the bulk of the game. Level 5 lockpick skill? Great! Just in time to test it on some level 5 locks...
Tets wrote:I hope there will be an option to speed up skill use, maybe some fast travel options between local maps and world map.. in general some features which reduce waiting time.
Not even on my short list. I'd say job one for them should be to add an effing checkbox that allows the player to disable the way the camera randomly reorients itself and zooms out after every character turn. I really have trouble believing the devs didn't feel it necessary to give the player the option to control their own viewpoint. It's not just annoying and distracting, about 25% of the time in my games the camera view moves itself to a point where I can't even see what's going on, like behind an obstruction of some sort. WTF guys? How'd that get through beta?

Job 2 in my opinion should be a better way to initiate combat. I'm so sick of having to turn off herd mode and trying to get off the first shot, even if it's a wild ass miss, just so that the enemy doesn't take the first turn while I'm trying to get my herd to do something non-stupid. And how many times have 2 or more of my characters been blocked in place by their own team mates after the game engine shoved them all against the nearest wall when combat started? I don't even know. How about some formations?