Update 60: Work… work never changes

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by IHaveHugeNick » February 28th, 2015, 9:16 am

PiPboy wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:This is not Xcom. Get over it.
Who cares if it is not XCom
You do, apparently. :lol:

Seriously though, X-com/JA2 comparisons are pointless. Its different genre, get a grip already.

Yes, balance would be great, no, its not actually very important, as evidenced by nearly every cRPG classic ever being unbalanced as fuck. I'm glad they're doing it, but I wouldn't bat an eye if they scraped the whole thing, either.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Drool » February 28th, 2015, 1:08 pm

PiPboy wrote:Its heavily combat oriented which is sad.
Almost as if it's a sequel to Wasteland.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by PiPboy » February 28th, 2015, 3:29 pm

Drool wrote:
PiPboy wrote:Its heavily combat oriented which is sad.
Almost as if it's a sequel to Wasteland.
There is nothing wrong with being heavily combat oriented.
But it also means adapting to the times and taking advantage of the hardware to make the combat more engaging also. [ Which is why I keep referencing XCom - Updates old features to modern times and takes advantage of being a pure combat oriented game ]
Right now it just feels like a lot of wasted potential occurred and is simply a shiner rehash of the original with a few extra nick naks. I never bought wasteland 2 for the graphics, such things never interested me. The only issue I ever had with graphics is when it becomes blatantly repetitive [ Dragon Age 2 ] and the random encounter zones in WL2.

Anyway Ill just wait till the update and see what it heralds.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Vault_13 » March 2nd, 2015, 12:20 am

Will this migration make my current party of veterans unplayable? I mean with all this "perk up" thing?

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by -Archangel- » March 2nd, 2015, 12:41 am

PiPboy wrote:
Drool wrote:
PiPboy wrote:Its heavily combat oriented which is sad.
Almost as if it's a sequel to Wasteland.
There is nothing wrong with being heavily combat oriented.
But it also means adapting to the times and taking advantage of the hardware to make the combat more engaging also. [ Which is why I keep referencing XCom - Updates old features to modern times and takes advantage of being a pure combat oriented game ]
Right now it just feels like a lot of wasted potential occurred and is simply a shiner rehash of the original with a few extra nick naks. I never bought wasteland 2 for the graphics, such things never interested me. The only issue I ever had with graphics is when it becomes blatantly repetitive [ Dragon Age 2 ] and the random encounter zones in WL2.

Anyway Ill just wait till the update and see what it heralds.
Maybe you think new Xcom is all cool and good but it is not. It is simple and plain. It only seems better because you can tune the difficulty to your playstyle and keep it tough within its plain options.
The rest of it comes down to maps and encounter design.
A game like Xenonauts is much better and so is Open Xcom.

WL2 will not have Xcom map design because it is an RPG. The hunting/ambush game between your team and enemies like in Xcom will never exist in WL2 and cannot exist. There are different game genres.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 2nd, 2015, 3:58 am

Vault_13 wrote:Will this migration make my current party of veterans unplayable? I mean with all this "perk up" thing?
Unless the patch notes announce it openly, in huge ass font and red warning light, you can safely assume anything they do to character development will work retroactively with all the saves.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Vault_13 » March 2nd, 2015, 4:50 am

It's just I've been through 2d playthrough with my veteran party and taking in consideration this huge patch won't be released tomorrow, it would be nice to know beforehand.

I found out that veteran party + supreme jerk mode makes the game very enjoyable, so I would be interested to have the ability to use my veterans in the future as well... or dump them if there's no point in investing more time in developing their skills even further.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Tets » March 2nd, 2015, 8:01 am

I hope perks will:

1. Add depth to combat
2. Make character creation and level up more interessting
3. Add flavor to your rangers

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Zombra » March 2nd, 2015, 11:08 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Vault_13 wrote:Will this migration make my current party of veterans unplayable? I mean with all this "perk up" thing?
Unless the patch notes announce it openly, in huge ass font and red warning light, you can safely assume anything they do to character development will work retroactively with all the saves.
I can't see how a revamped character system wouldn't break old saves. If I were you V13 I'd plan to either finish my current playthrough before applying the patch or be prepared to start over.

That said, I imagine it will be at least a month before this thing comes out, probably more like two, maybe even three or more. Seems like it's (hopefully) going to be a major deal that will require a ton of dev & testing.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 2nd, 2015, 6:12 pm

I hope Perks will... Not be shite.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by frabron » March 2nd, 2015, 11:30 pm

Woolfe wrote:I hope Perks will... Not be shite.
lol, definitely! I fall into the "This is not Fallout"-group, but I really think that the character system could use more love. So, while I am reluctant towards the perks, I am really looking forward to the new character system in general.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Vault_13 » March 3rd, 2015, 1:09 am

Why everyone thinks that devs will add perks :D? Might be just an intriguing figure of speech!

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by frabron » March 3rd, 2015, 1:24 am

I've had the same thought, too - intriguing :D

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Zombra » March 3rd, 2015, 4:10 am

Yeah, I'm intrigued all the way down to where I wear my ass-kicking boots. inXile knows better than to mess with us like that :lol:
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Rejak » March 3rd, 2015, 4:46 am

PiPboy wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:This is not Xcom. Get over it.
Who cares if it is not XCom - its about learning from good product.
XCom has fantastic mixture of both Perks + Skills.
Its known for its combat difficulty and weapon balance.
The new version of XCOM was a major disappointment, at least to me, a fan of the original game. It was almost completely linear in every way, with a dumbed down research tree and building plan where no what you planned you were pretty much gonna do the same thing every playthrough, because that's all you could really do. And the squad combat was dull. So, dunno why anybody would want Wasteland 2 to be like X-COM. What Wasteland 2 should aspire to be is Fallout 2 roleplaying/storytelling with Jagged Alliance 2 squad combat. They did a decent job of hitting that mark, though JA2 is still without peer when it comes to squad combat. Hard to believe after 15 years and dozens of people trying, nobody has been able to match what the JA2 team did on a lark.
frabron wrote:
Woolfe wrote:I hope Perks will... Not be shite.
lol, definitely! I fall into the "This is not Fallout"-group, but I really think that the character system could use more love. So, while I am reluctant towards the perks, I am really looking forward to the new character system in general.
Perks could theoretically fix handguns, shotguns and other lame ass useless weaponry that people still love to use for some weird reason. If this was an MMO there would be special abilities that were only usable when wielding the stupid weapons, to make them not only viable but kickass. And InXile seems to have been influenced by MMO design when it comes to item and level scaling. So hit us with the Shotgun Surgeon and Gunslinger perks, already. You know a lot of people want that...

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by frabron » March 3rd, 2015, 6:59 am

To perk or not to perk has been discussed to death and beyond during development and after. Just do a search on the general forum and you'll see what I mean. There are those two fronts and you won't be able to argue one into agreeing to the other. So just skip it ;) :)

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 3rd, 2015, 2:58 pm

Rejak wrote: What Wasteland 2 should aspire to be is Fallout 2 roleplaying/storytelling with Jagged Alliance 2 squad combat. They did a decent job of hitting that mark, though JA2 is still without peer when it comes to squad combat. Hard to believe after 15 years and dozens of people trying, nobody has been able to match what the JA2 team did on a lark.
Or better yet, a modern sequel to the original Wasteland using multiple sources as inspiration.
They stated real early that this was NOT going to be a tactical squad combat game anywhere near the scale of JA2.
And many of us fought tooth and nail to keep the Wasteland as the Wasteland and not a Fallout wannabe.

Unfortunately IMO they fell down with the implementation of CLASSIC(A slightly better reference to SPECIAL, than the original idea). It didn't do what it should have done. The linking between attributes and skills is simply not right. This was a resourcing issue as far as I can tell. The suggestion was always that they would impact each other.
Rejak wrote: Perks could theoretically fix handguns, shotguns and other lame ass useless weaponry that people still love to use for some weird reason. If this was an MMO there would be special abilities that were only usable when wielding the stupid weapons, to make them not only viable but kickass. And InXile seems to have been influenced by MMO design when it comes to item and level scaling. So hit us with the Shotgun Surgeon and Gunslinger perks, already. You know a lot of people want that...
The weapons issue is a known balance issue, born of I don't know what. It was compounded by the last minute addition of head shots. And why did we get head shots. Because FO had Called shots. People forget how badly implemented called shots in FO were tho.

And having perks to "fix" the weapon balance issue is equally bad.
I don't really get why people want Perks so much. They really just restrict the character creation. There are always "must have" perks. So if you want a shotgun player you "must have" shotgun Surgeon. Or if you are going to be a tech player you "must have" an appropriate intelligence based technical perk or whatever.

This doesn't add to the flavour it detracts from it. It is as bad as "skill synergies" where certain skills add to other skills. Suddenly a Sniper must always have skill X Y and Z to be the best etc.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 3rd, 2015, 4:04 pm

Nothing wrong with perks in itself, its just that people expected perks to be essentially glued on with duct-tape post-development, which is never a good idea. Hopefully enough time has passed since launched and they will get it right.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Zombra » March 3rd, 2015, 7:13 pm

Woolfe wrote:I don't really get why people want Perks so much. They really just restrict the character creation. There are always "must have" perks. So if you want a shotgun player you "must have" shotgun Surgeon. Or if you are going to be a tech player you "must have" an appropriate intelligence based technical perk or whatever.
The trick is to have so many substantial Perks that every choice remains interesting. Most Wasteland 2 characters have more than one skill or specialty to develop. Do I want that cool Blade maneuver or increased success rate in scripted surgical tasks? You get the idea.

Sure, if you're a munchkin, you'll always feel compelled to take the most min/maxy combat effective Perks, but so what? The same can be said of the whole character system. I like adding Perks to further describe my characters in ways that impact the game, the same way I assign stats. (I don't use Luck as a dump stat! Sacrilege!)

Now ... do I think inXile will have enough Perks to make the system cool? At first guess, I'll be honest ... no. New Vegas had 86 Perks to choose from for a single character, and I felt like that was a pretty good number to give me a lot of choices. But with four player characters, not to mention companions, it's astronomically unlikely that they'll be able to provide enough choices that mixing and matching party builds will be substantially unique to each playthrough. More likely they'll have a few sniper Perks, a few melee Perks, etc. and effectively create several "character classes" as you implied. Prove me wrong, guys.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 3rd, 2015, 8:17 pm

Zombra wrote:
Woolfe wrote:I don't really get why people want Perks so much. They really just restrict the character creation. There are always "must have" perks. So if you want a shotgun player you "must have" shotgun Surgeon. Or if you are going to be a tech player you "must have" an appropriate intelligence based technical perk or whatever.
The trick is to have so many substantial Perks that every choice remains interesting. Most Wasteland 2 characters have more than one skill or specialty to develop. Do I want that cool Blade maneuver or increased success rate in scripted surgical tasks? You get the idea.
Oh I totally get it. But how do you define the perks, is it just all in, or do you start assigning them to skills and stat levels? As soon as you do that you start restricting the builds again. I want to be a Sniper therefore I need the must have perk, which I can only get with STAT xyz and Skill 123.
Zombra wrote:Sure, if you're a munchkin, you'll always feel compelled to take the most min/maxy combat effective Perks, but so what? The same can be said of the whole character system. I like adding Perks to further describe my characters in ways that impact the game, the same way I assign stats. (I don't use Luck as a dump stat! Sacrilege!)
I'm no Munchkin either, I build my characters based on their "history" with a loose desire to meet certain needs in a party(Tech guy, Medic type, Leader type etc), but even then there will be some perks that will become must haves. I'll put money on it. In which case you are not gaining, but losing choice.
We had this argument with the skill synergies Zombra. You pointed out(and convinced me) that by having synergies it would mean that certain builds would become default because that is how you get the best from XYZ. This is potentially the same kettle of fish. Certainly it is the case in other games that feature perks.
Zombra wrote:Now ... do I think inXile will have enough Perks to make the system cool? At first guess, I'll be honest ... no. New Vegas had 86 Perks to choose from for a single character, and I felt like that was a pretty good number to give me a lot of choices. But with four player characters, not to mention companions, it's astronomically unlikely that they'll be able to provide enough choices that mixing and matching party builds will be substantially unique to each playthrough. More likely they'll have a few sniper Perks, a few melee Perks, etc. and effectively create several "character classes" as you implied. Prove me wrong, guys.
Aye... this is my concern.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against perks per se. I am simply against tacked on and broken perks. Especially as everyone points to FO as the "way" to do it. The implementation of head shots doesn't fill me with glee at the prospect of perks.
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