Update 58:Life Beyond Release

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 9th, 2014, 11:20 pm

IHaveHugeNick wrote:My optimal Meantime team:

Hitler as demolition's expert
Ghandi as medic
Tesla as science guy
Mike Tyson as brawler
Marylin Monroe as talky char wooing the NPCs.

Hitler and Ghandi become best buddies, Marylin fucks Mike, and Tesla is just sitting alone during campfire stops, masturbating.
Lol Hitler. If they let you do that, it would be the most controversial game ever.

BTW, Hitler would be more suited as party motivator and talker as that was all he did. He was crap at anything else (including making military decisions).

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Crosmando » December 10th, 2014, 2:43 am

Tesla will have a hand-held Teslacoil of course. Einstein will have a chronosphere teleporter. Also Cyborg Nazis.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by IHaveHugeNick » December 10th, 2014, 5:47 am

-Archangel- wrote: Lol Hitler. If they let you do that, it would be the most controversial game ever.

BTW, Hitler would be more suited as party motivator and talker as that was all he did. He was crap at anything else (including making military decisions).
Ha. Well, that kind of depends how its done. I expect it to be lighthearted and wacky, god help us if its going to be full-on serious time travel game. No one has ever done dark gritty time travel and succeeded.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Andross » December 10th, 2014, 7:41 am

Woolfe wrote:Because Perks/Traits/stealth/stealing/aimed shot etc were not unique to Fallout, and indeed Fallout's implementations of them were more often than not significantly broken.

As for the specific example of Aimed shots in Fallout that were mentioned. They were broken, and shouldn't be held up as an example of how to do it.

I don't know about Drool, but it is exasperating to see everyone holding up Fallout as the holy grail, when in reality it was quite a mess, that needed to be fixed by the community.

We all love Fallout, but using it as a reference point for everything is just silly. Why copy that, when you could try and create something new, that doesn't contain the same broken elements.
Well, I didn't intended to say that it's a good idea to imitate Fallout's way of implementing such features; just was using it as an example of how much depth you can try to develop in an RPG by adding those ideas. I mean, not adding them because they were broken in Fallout (a game that at least tried to be deep) is stupid. I usually mention that game because it's similar in some ways to the original Wasteland and could be taken as an evolution.

At this point, I find WL2's lack of depth in some areas unacceptable; and the fact that it doesn't even feature things like aimed shots seems illogical to me and I feel like some people don't want WL2's to deliver a satisfying combat experience (that can only be reached by adding more tactical options) when they say they shouldn't be added just because WL1 didn't have such options; and seem to think that it's some sort of a "sacrilege" to implement them. These are my conclusions after reading some Drool's comments where he looks pissed off by Fallout's fanboys' ideas.

I mean, would this situation change if people mentioned games like Jagged Alliance 2 instead of Fallout? Or would it continue being considered a bad idea by someone else?

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Drool » December 10th, 2014, 1:52 pm

The problem is Fallout fans continually trying to turn everything into Van Buren. I still remember the knock-down drag-out fights with Fallout fans who demanded that the game be a single protagonist game, because that's what Fallout was. Fallout fans who saw coded messages in everything inXile put out that led them to believe that this was really a sooper-seekret Fallout sequel and that it was just called "Wasteland 2" as a smoke screen to hide from Bethesda's lawyers.

And now, before we have anything other than an IP registry, people are trying to do it with Meantime, too. Not everything needs to be bloody Fallout. I'm sick of it. Especially since many of the problems I have with Wasteland 2 were caused by trying to make the game more like Fallout. MSPE was a perfectly fine system, but no. We needed to be more like SPECIAL, so we got stuck with CLASSIC. Thanks a lot. That was a big improvement. We had to have Fallout's broken-ass called shots, so we ended up with the current broken-ass head shots. Thanks a lot. I can only imagine the mess we'd have if they'd gone for traits and perks, too.

Do you people stomp around on other properties too? Was there a contingent trying to turn Divinity: Original Sin into Van Buren too? Are people yelling at CD Projekt RED to make Cyberpunk 2077 include a PipBoy? Enough already. Go yell at Bethesda.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by IHaveHugeNick » December 10th, 2014, 3:22 pm

Yup. If there's one thing that ended up hurting W2 its the unhealthy Fallout obsession part of the fanbase had.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Woolfe » December 10th, 2014, 6:05 pm

Andross wrote: I mean, would this situation change if people mentioned games like Jagged Alliance 2 instead of Fallout? Or would it continue being considered a bad idea by someone else?
It would. The reality is it is not a problem with Fallout being used as an example, indeed most of us love Fallout, and it has many fine examples to learn from. It was the level of sheer bloody mindedness of some of the Fallout Fans insisting on this MUST be more like FO etc despite the fact that the existing Wasteland system actually worked fine or without even considering the WL system in the first place.
We just didn't see the same level of "demanding" from the JA2 or the Xcom fans for example.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 10th, 2014, 11:37 pm

IHaveHugeNick wrote:Yup. If there's one thing that ended up hurting W2 its the unhealthy Fallout obsession part of the fanbase had.
That is a problem of InXile than because they decided to cater to less populous WL1 fans instead of more populous F1/2 fans.
And it seems they want to fix this with Van Buren.

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Crosmando » December 11th, 2014, 12:36 am

But why lol, Van Buren was just a codename
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by kurosawa » December 11th, 2014, 1:06 am

i am a bit surprised, annoyed by the discussion about the next inxile project, too.
all the people are capable of, is to imagine a game that is an inofficial sequel to an inofficial sequel to wasteland. a game that was delivered a few months ago. all they want is more of the same.
on the other hand those people complain about sequels every year, seen by the AAA publisher. a lack of creativity.

i thought we have kickstarter to break this circle. bring something new to the gaming market.
i strongly hope we will see Meantime as the new inxile project. a timetravel rpg ....man, timetravel.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 11th, 2014, 2:28 am

There is no reason why we cannot get Van Buren and Meantime. Both were registred by InXile :)

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by IHaveHugeNick » December 11th, 2014, 6:09 am

-Archangel- wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Yup. If there's one thing that ended up hurting W2 its the unhealthy Fallout obsession part of the fanbase had.
That is a problem of InXile than because they decided to cater to less populous WL1 fans instead of more populous F1/2 fans.
No, its pretty much problem with the fans I'm afraid. InXile were completely open that this is going to be Wasteland sequel, but some people went and hallucinated themselves into the idea that its going to be Fallout clone under different name.

The one thing I dislike about RPG community as a whole is the expectation that we always need to be mindlessly cloning the design of high-profile games. Nobody ever questions mana anymore as balancing factor for mage classes, even though its obvious that the entire mechanic is archaic as fuck, and doesn't even have a rational explanation in any of the fantasy lore. I can't recall Gandalf gulping some blue potions to cast fireballs. But no, its an RPG, so we gotta have mana else people will go apeshit.

The same thing kind of happened here. I don't mind perks at all, for example, but 7-man squad game needs a different design then 4-man squad game, and lone protagonist game needs a different design as well. The mechanics needs to be created from a gameplay perspective, not in an attempt to recreate archaic designs from 15 year old game that had completely different gameplay concept. They're making a game, not a museum exhibition.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 11th, 2014, 6:55 am

It is still a problem of InXile. Make the game the market wants. If they said we are going to make Van Buren instead of WL2 they would have gotten even more money. And nobody would complain about WL2 not being like Fallout.

Then they could use that money to make WL2 and market it as such from the start without using their experience with Fallout and name dropping Fallout in interviews all the time. Fargo knew very well what he was doing when he was marketing WL2. He wanted Fallout fanboys because he counted they are so desperate more would enjoy the closest thing to real Fallout 3 than not.

And the negativity that came with it is also his fault. He called it.

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by IHaveHugeNick » December 11th, 2014, 7:23 am

-Archangel- wrote:It is still a problem of InXile.
No, it isn't. They made they game they said they're going to make. If you deluded yourself into thinking its going to be different game, thats on you.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Andross » December 11th, 2014, 7:48 am

Drool wrote:The problem is Fallout fans continually trying to turn everything into Van Buren. I still remember the knock-down drag-out fights with Fallout fans who demanded that the game be a single protagonist game, because that's what Fallout was. Fallout fans who saw coded messages in everything inXile put out that led them to believe that this was really a sooper-seekret Fallout sequel and that it was just called "Wasteland 2" as a smoke screen to hide from Bethesda's lawyers.

And now, before we have anything other than an IP registry, people are trying to do it with Meantime, too. Not everything needs to be bloody Fallout. I'm sick of it. Especially since many of the problems I have with Wasteland 2 were caused by trying to make the game more like Fallout. MSPE was a perfectly fine system, but no. We needed to be more like SPECIAL, so we got stuck with CLASSIC. Thanks a lot. That was a big improvement. We had to have Fallout's broken-ass called shots, so we ended up with the current broken-ass head shots. Thanks a lot. I can only imagine the mess we'd have if they'd gone for traits and perks, too.

Do you people stomp around on other properties too? Was there a contingent trying to turn Divinity: Original Sin into Van Buren too? Are people yelling at CD Projekt RED to make Cyberpunk 2077 include a PipBoy? Enough already. Go yell at Bethesda.
You have some fair points, and that helps me to understand your thoughts. For example, making a single character RPG would've been so stupid.

But that doesn't mean WL can learn from other franchises (including Fallout). When I read WL2'd vision document's ideas for combat, the fact that inXile wanted to make a proper tactical combat system I felt impressed by how it seemed like they were going to follow the right steps and make something more similar to Jagged Alliance 2 instead of trying to stick with WL1's old formula. When I saw that the game's combat feels simple, shallow and half-baked I felt very disappointed. It lacks of tactical options such as aimed shots (a feature I'd want because it would help to improve the experience if implemented properly, not because Fallout had them) among many other mechanics they could imitate from other tactical games.

Seriously, implementing perks/traits would indeed add depth if they were included properly. And I personally wouldn't criticize any effort invested in trying so, since depth is what make RPGs fun.

Though I certainly agree that they could do much more to make the game feel more Wasteland-y. The system itself doesn't have some SPECIAL's strenghts, so I wouldn't mind CLASSIC as long as they make some tweaks; but since every effort invested in catching WL1's soul would be inmensely appreciated by the "actual Wasteland 1 fans" they should focus on that for WL3.

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 11th, 2014, 11:15 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:It is still a problem of InXile.
No, it isn't. They made they game they said they're going to make. If you deluded yourself into thinking its going to be different game, thats on you.
You seem to not understand what I am talking about. Let leave it at that. Other people will get it.

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Lucius » December 11th, 2014, 11:24 am

-Archangel- wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:It is still a problem of InXile.
No, it isn't. They made they game they said they're going to make. If you deluded yourself into thinking its going to be different game, thats on you.
You seem to not understand what I am talking about. Let leave it at that. Other people will get it.
I get it.

Still not inXile's fault. The parallels to Fallout were played up. It was good marketing on BF's part. However, fans read a shitload into that marketing on their own. Brian Fargo delivered what he said. It's not his fault some folks heard "Fallout clone." He never said that.

Drool is 100% correct. If you can't understand that, thats on you. Again. I see a running pattern here...

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by Woolfe » December 11th, 2014, 3:40 pm

-Archangel- wrote: Make the game the market wants.
This is the whole problem with your argument. From Day 1 of the Kickstarter it was a rejection of the standard "what does the market want" concept. Big Publishers may be bagged out for various reasons. But one thing for sure, they
KNOW what the market wants.
Andross wrote:But that doesn't mean WL can learn from other franchises (including Fallout). When I read WL2'd vision document's ideas for combat, the fact that inXile wanted to make a proper tactical combat system I felt impressed by how it seemed like they were going to follow the right steps and make something more similar to Jagged Alliance 2 instead of trying to stick with WL1's old formula. When I saw that the game's combat feels simple, shallow and half-baked I felt very disappointed. It lacks of tactical options such as aimed shots (a feature I'd want because it would help to improve the experience if implemented properly, not because Fallout had them) among many other mechanics they could imitate from other tactical games.
Totally. We all agree with that. Our problem was never with learning from the other systems, like FO or JA2. It was just the rabid denial of anything bar FO. Especially in relation to specific WL parts.
As to the Combat. They did say it was never going to be JA2 level, though I don't recall where they said that. This was always going to be RPG, not a combat sim. Which ultimately was a resourcing issue, they couldn't afford to spend the time to build a complex tactical Combat sim. Don't forget it is JA2 so they have already gone through at least 1 iteration, and it was always a combat sim with RPG elements.
Andross wrote:Seriously, implementing perks/traits would indeed add depth if they were included properly. And I personally wouldn't criticize any effort invested in trying so, since depth is what make RPGs fun.
We had been talking about traits and other "perklike" stuff from early on. Ultimately again this appears to have been a resourcing issue. I am glad they didn't try and shoe horn something in.
Andross wrote:Though I certainly agree that they could do much more to make the game feel more Wasteland-y. The system itself doesn't have some SPECIAL's strenghts, so I wouldn't mind CLASSIC as long as they make some tweaks; but since every effort invested in catching WL1's soul would be inmensely appreciated by the "actual Wasteland 1 fans" they should focus on that for WL3.
I think they made a mistake with CLASSIC. They didn't have enough time to make it work and pick the problems out. You don't build a core gameplay element in an rpg overnight. They clearly wanted to change the MSPE, probably because it is a little bit esoteric and takes a bit to understand. Unfortunately what they changed to, and the way they named it(Splicers originally Classic at the suggestion of a forum goer) were very reminiscent of SPECIAL. No doubt on purpose. But it set up an expectation on a system to be as good as a system that had not only been through 2+ other games, but had also had a lot of maturing with people discussing it over time.
CLASSIC may well end up being a good system once some of the bugs are knocked out of it. It has a solid base to work in. But it just needs some revisioning to clean it up and fix holes.
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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by -Archangel- » December 12th, 2014, 2:20 am

Lucius wrote:
-Archangel- wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote: No, it isn't. They made they game they said they're going to make. If you deluded yourself into thinking its going to be different game, thats on you.
You seem to not understand what I am talking about. Let leave it at that. Other people will get it.
I get it.

Still not inXile's fault. The parallels to Fallout were played up. It was good marketing on BF's part. However, fans read a shitload into that marketing on their own. Brian Fargo delivered what he said. It's not his fault some folks heard "Fallout clone." He never said that.

Drool is 100% correct. If you can't understand that, thats on you. Again. I see a running pattern here...
Personally I like WL2, although I think it could have been better. But for the first real game InXile made, it is good effort.
So I am kind of playing the advocate of Fallout fans that expected Fallout 3 because I never played WL1 and can put myself in their shoes.

That said, InXile used Fallout too much in marketing. That is why I say it is their fault. They got the people hopes up only to smash them.
Same is now happening with Pillars of Eternity. They named dropped all IE games (even more than WL2 did with Fallout) only to make a game J.E.Sawyer wants instead of what IE games fans want. When the game is released there are going to be a lot of butthurt people on metacritic again.

As far who is deluded, it is only people that think that WL2 would raise as much money as it did if it didn't use Fallout as reference.
Fallout is by far more popular franchise than Wasteland, even before Betsheda made a more casual version of the game.

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Re: Update 58:Life Beyond Release

Post by IHaveHugeNick » December 12th, 2014, 3:38 am

-Archangel- wrote: You seem to not understand what I am talking about. Let leave it at that. Other people will get it.
I understand it perfectly, I just can't agree with you at all. I can't support the idea that people can just go and hallucinate themselves into whatever they want, while completely ignoring comments from developer, and then have legitimate complaint that they didn't receive what they wanted.



And your comments about the market are rather misguided. The whole point of Kickstarter was so they can do what they want, not what mass market wants it to be. I knew it was going to be different game then Fallout from the start and I have zero problem with it. I like trying different things rather then replaying clones all over again, imagine that.
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