inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

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eisberg
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by eisberg » November 21st, 2018, 3:13 am

svdp wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:57 am
eisberg wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 3:16 pm

What happened in the past with Microsoft doesn't matter, what matters is what they are doing now.
Famous last words. ;-)

I'm always amazed by the naivety of some people in this regard. The historic evidence of the contrary may be overwhelming, yet there is still that urge for wishful thinking. "All such take-overs of little indies with all mega-corps even with assured and promised independence never held up in the long run, but THIS time is different! Now, in this unique case, MS has not only promised, but they will keep their promise for once! So let's go with the 'Believe as I say, not as I do'-approach!"

Man...

It's very, very simple in its basics: they own the IP now, so they can ALWAYS decide what happens with it. "Independence", promised contractual or not, has no sway in that. If MS say: we want you to do this and that, and Fargo says 'no', and MS says: 'yes', then Fargo and his crew will have to do it, or risk being 'laid off'. Is it stipulated in the contract they can never be discharged, fired or 'laid off'? I highly doubt it. So MS is their boss, and they decide. Period.
And I'm amazed by people's lack of logic.
Historic evidence doesn't matter when it is already shown things are different than the past. Makes historical evidence irrelevant.

Logically, it makes no sense to buy up these companies that have a very specific skill set for very specific types of games only to change everything about them. No, you buy them up to let them continue to use those specific skill set to make the type of games they are known to make.

IHaveHugeNick
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by IHaveHugeNick » November 21st, 2018, 4:07 am

svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 8:54 am

Why are you lying and inventing fake stories that never happened? [/snip]
Ah, are you one of those? "It wasn't fable 3, it was fable 2! Why are you lying, why are you LYYYYINGG!!??" For f- sake! Stumbling over a detail while I'm trying to get the larger picture across is typical of people not wanting to realize the deeper laying truth. Instead of sweating the details, you tell me then: where IS lionhead, these days? Where IS Fable 4, after more than a decade?
Dude, I just caught you posting fake facts, misinformation and alternative facts that never happened. And after all that, you have the nerve to complain that other users "are naive despite historic evidence of the contrary". The historic evidence which I just proved to be absolute nonsense. So yes, I'm going to be sweating over details, because details prove that your larger pictures and deeper truths are a complete fabrication.

You're posting blatant lies and when busted you act as if your point still makes sense. I'm sorry if facts and evidence disagree with your feelings, but that's how debating works.

You were wrong, on the internet, it happens. Don't dig your hole any deeper than it needs to be.
svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
Instead of quoting some snippets that are cherry-picked, why not tell the whole story
I'm pretty sure posted a link to a 30000 word article by a reputable source that does exactly that.
svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
Their track-record isn't exactly stellar, on this front!
We've just established quite clearly that you know next to nothing about their track record.
Two rite whiff care is quite a feet of witch won should be proud.

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Spectralshade
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by Spectralshade » November 21st, 2018, 6:16 am

eisberg wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 3:13 am
And I'm amazed by people's lack of logic.
Historic evidence doesn't matter when it is already shown things are different than the past. Makes historical evidence irrelevant.

Logically, it makes no sense to buy up these companies that have a very specific skill set for very specific types of games only to change everything about them. No, you buy them up to let them continue to use those specific skill set to make the type of games they are known to make.
I hate to say it, but your type of logic in this thing is the same type of logic used by women that keep going back to absual boyfriends/husbands.

"oh but THIS TIME it is different..."

Sure it is...

:?

svdp
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by svdp » November 21st, 2018, 6:37 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 4:07 am
svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 8:54 am

Why are you lying and inventing fake stories that never happened? [/snip]
Ah, are you one of those? "It wasn't fable 3, it was fable 2! Why are you lying, why are you LYYYYINGG!!??" For f- sake! Stumbling over a detail while I'm trying to get the larger picture across is typical of people not wanting to realize the deeper laying truth. Instead of sweating the details, you tell me then: where IS lionhead, these days? Where IS Fable 4, after more than a decade?
Dude, I just caught you posting fake facts, misinformation and alternative facts that never happened. And after all that, you have the nerve to complain that other users "are naive despite historic evidence of the contrary". The historic evidence which I just proved to be absolute nonsense. So yes, I'm going to be sweating over details, because details prove that your larger pictures and deeper truths are a complete fabrication.

You're posting blatant lies and when busted you act as if your point still makes sense. I'm sorry if facts and evidence disagree with your feelings, but that's how debating works.

You were wrong, on the internet, it happens. Don't dig your hole any deeper than it needs to be.
svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
Instead of quoting some snippets that are cherry-picked, why not tell the whole story
I'm pretty sure posted a link to a 30000 word article by a reputable source that does exactly that.
svdp wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 9:26 am
Their track-record isn't exactly stellar, on this front!
We've just established quite clearly that you know next to nothing about their track record.
"Caught you"? See, you're acting, again, like some sort of detective catching a criminal. Dude... just chill. I know some people like to pat themselves on tha back and keep blowing up their already inflated ego, but you're just spinning things the way you like it, here. It's an asinine way of trying to make a point as an actual counter. And you still don't seem to get it. Whether it was 2 or 3 IN NO WAY affects the deeper issue here, nor does it alter the conclusion. The fact you don't seem to get that, simply indicates you're too busy with your own navel-staring to actually make a valid point.

I'm sorry if this simple fact (that your grand reveal that I got the number wrong) doesn't alter anything of the basis of the conclusion I made, disagrees with YOUR feelings, but that's *also* how debates work, if you didn't know that.

Contrary to you, I have no problem when I'm wrong, even outside the internet, but you make a deliberate attempt of misrepresenting the case as 'the conclusion being wrong', instead of a mere detail that, when corrected, has no bearings, nor alters, that conclusion. At all. It's immaterial to it. Non relevant. That's why I said you were sweating the details, while ignoring the actual issue.

I'll repeat my questions, which you conveniently ignored: Where is Lionhead, these days? Is it not a FACT they were disbanded and shut down by MS? Is it not a FACT there is no fable 4 after a decade? (Maybe you can keep the same nonsense on here too, and say "it's only 9 years, not ten!" as if that is the point...)

So my point stands, whatever spin you're trying to give it.

shmerl
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by shmerl » November 21st, 2018, 7:02 am

eisberg wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 10:18 pm
Its in the contract that they can continue to make the kind of games they want to make, for what they are known to make. It being DRM free/Linux, ect have nothing to do with that. The only important part is they can keep on making the kind of games they are known to make.
False. DRM-free and Linux releases are kind of games they were making. You might not care if you use DRM yourself, but that doesn't change the facts. So MS buying them has everything to do with potential cancellation of their previous approach.

svdp
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by svdp » November 21st, 2018, 8:15 am

eisberg wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 3:13 am
And I'm amazed by people's lack of logic.
Historic evidence doesn't matter when it is already shown things are different than the past. Makes historical evidence irrelevant.

Logically, it makes no sense to buy up these companies that have a very specific skill set for very specific types of games only to change everything about them. No, you buy them up to let them continue to use those specific skill set to make the type of games they are known to make.
I would agree with your amazement of the lack of logic with some people, though I think we differ on the opinion whom we see applying logic and whom not.

'Historical evidence doesn't matter' is about the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard in the same breath as 'using logic', and the nominator 'when things are different' doesn't change that. Things are ALWAYS different in SOME regards; no two things were *exactly* the same, ever. Thus, this conditional variable means nothing, since it's not about whether it's 'the same', but whether a pattern can be discerned that is applicable to similar - not the same - happenstances.

For it to be not the case, you would first have to demonstrate the change is large and relevant - and getting the assurance that they will remain independent doesn't qualify, because that is already part of the established pattern - and secondly, you would need to demonstrate that this change makes it inherently impossible or at the very least extremely unlikely for the pattern to happen.

You did neither.

You failed to give a qualification for the former, and did not provide logical reasoning and arguments for the latter.

In your last part you discuss how unreasonable it would be for a parent company to change things, but you fail to note how illogical it is not to incorporate how illogical people are - even while beginning your post with this very same observation! - and thus you make the wrong conclusion, based on the equally wrong assumption that all people use strict logic, or even apply the same reasoning as you yourself. They don't. And the proof of that can be seen in the historical evidence, which you dismissed so readily. Because the reasoning given by you would be valid in all such cases, yet in practice we see big corp DO meddle, invariably, with the indies they gobbled up. EVEN with prior assurances. That it 'doesn't make sense' has never stopped them before, so it's not a counter to the argument.

As one can see, when applying logic, one must apply it consistently, or otherwise it's of little use.
Last edited by svdp on November 21st, 2018, 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.

Jabberwok
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by Jabberwok » November 21st, 2018, 8:20 am

Did we ever get an answer as to who owns the rights to the IPs now?

I still remember when Bungie was bought out. It was certainly good for the company, but Halo went console exclusive and turned into an action game. Fast forward ten years, and I had to watch Halo transform into a Call of Duty clone while Microsoft pimped out Cortana's voice for their Siri ripoff. Now I can't even find a place to buy a copy of Halo PC. I assume MS got rid of it so they could keep selling hundred dollar remasters on every system they put out. So yeah, not super excited about this. I hope you guys got a better deal than Bungie did in that regard. It's always depressing to see artists lose the right to work on something they created.

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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by waltc » November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am

shmerl wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 5:01 pm

Not sure about macOS (I don't think it's really suitable for gaming anyway, simply because Apple don't care about such use case), but Linux offers developers a comprehensive set of APIs for gaming needs, from graphics (Vulkan the modern way, OpenGL the legacy way) to input and sound. Things today are not like two decades ago. The only thing that's currently in rapid change is VR/AR, but it's not any different and chaotic now on Windows as well. Luckily unlike with graphics, even lock-in proponents aren't messing things up for developers, but are participating in OpenXR initiative. Not sure what prevents them from stopping their jerk behavior with graphics, and doing the same by supporting Vulkan on their systems.
waltc wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 8:51 am
Can you imagine your average OS X/Windows user today trying to set up a game to run on a Linux distro? I absolutely cannot...;)
Not any less than that user setting it up on Windows. Major gaming stores like Steam and GOG (as well as Humble and itch.io) offer Linux games. Steam in their transparent client installation way (not any different from Windows) and GOG in their standalone installer way, also quite easy to use. Besides, various Linux gaming communities are also helping newcomers if they have questions about setup and configuration. You can find many Windows gamers switching to Linux these days. Just check common Linux gaming communities. For example:

* https://www.gamingonlinux.com
* https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming

More advanced users are also often using Wine to run Windows games on Linux (Steam also made it easy and transparent now with their Proton fork of Wine). So not only I can imagine that, I witness this all the time.
For 3d games, for most AAA developers, the only viable choice is Windows/D3d, for all of the obvious reasons.
Not anymore. Vulkan has a strong industry backing and MS can't stop that. Their only remaining leverage is not allowing using Vulkan on Xbox or pushing garbage like UWP which prevents using Vulkan. From technical perspective, their DX12 lock-in doesn't offer any advantages.

Here is an interesting video, about Vulkan work done for actual major gaming studios which make huge budget games.
I'm not going to belabor the issue--I respect your opinion. I'm not interested in being right, I'll just tell you what I observe. It's that every year for the last couple of decades, or so, I've heard, "This year is the year of Linux on the desktop." But that has yet to happen, of course. For what should be obvious reasons: Linux is primarily used as a base for commercial server applications--IBM sells its versions of Linux server software as do other companies. There is no "Linux" in the sense of their being one "windows". As there are several differing and often non-compatible versions of Linux, etc.

I agree with you about Apple--the company has never supported gaming to any degree with its OSes, and OS X is no exception (Remember Jobs' aborted "sockets"? Went over like a lead balloon--and, then, of course, true to form, Apple dropped it. Jobs was nothing if not finicky..;)) Gabe Newell wrote when they decided to host some Mac games over on Steam that dragging Apple into a decent version of OpenGL support was like pulling teeth, or some such, IIRC...;) But still, even with as small a share of the 3d gaming market today as Apple has, even Apple's tiny share of that market is a good deal larger than the Linux "desktop" gaming share--which differs according to Linux version used. That's merely a fact--not intended as any kind of criticism.

This is a question I've asked many a so-called Linux game customer: "Do you think that the games you buy for your Linux box are materially better than those same games running under Window10x64, for instance?" (Windows 10x64 is just as compatible with Vulkan as any other OS, and both AMD and nVidia GPU drivers support Vulkan drivers under Win10x64.) The answer I get is always the same, among those who choose to answer the question in a civil fashion and among those who do not think Microsoft is out for world domination, that is...;) No--they are not materially better. At best, they are the same--at worst, they are not available for a native Linux distro build at all, often the case, actually. And as a matter of fact, in the event of availability, they can be materially worse for various reasons. I cannot imagine a situation worse than running an x64 Linux distro underneath a Windows32/64 emulator underneath a Win32/64 game.....;) Hardware driver support under Linux for desktop gaming peripherals (and others) is abysmal compared to the Windows-compatible hardware driver situation--Do I want open source hardware drivers for my sometimes expensive proprietary hardware like GPUs? nVidia puts out some Linux drivers for some Linux distros--AMD doesn't--or if it does, they aren't much. Nope. Not interested. Microsoft is not in any way responsible for the disparity in the proprietary driver situation--it is the hardware OEMs and IHVs who make the decisions relative to what OSes they are going to fund their driver development to support--and which OSes they will not support.

But is any of this a negative about all of the various Linux distros that exist? No, not in the slightest, because the Linux kernel was never intended to be a desktop competitor to Windows in terms of support for computer gaming, especially 3d gaming. Anyway, that's how I see the situation, myself...;) Basically, people for whom computer gaming is a primary hobby are not going to be doing it on a Linux derivative--but people who want/need a particular Linux distro for purposes other than computer gaming, and for whom gaming is merely a secondary, occasional diversion, are likely the people who make up the Linux gaming base. Also, I have found that people using a particular Linux distro for a desktop OS often have a very irrational hatred for Microsoft--possibly it is their primary motivator for using Linux on their desktop! I've talked to several of that persuasion--and it's like whenever I point out a practical advantage for using Winx64 over Linux in a gaming desktop--these folks go ballistic! I've unintentionally stepped on a sacred cow, I guess...;) Bottom line: if you want to use Linux for gaming--hey, go right ahead--I'm certainly not going to object...;) Have fun!

Happy Thanksgiving, btw...;) I'm getting ready to plow into the latest version of the BTIV!

svdp
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by svdp » November 21st, 2018, 12:01 pm

" I'm getting ready to plow into the latest version of the BTIV!"

Which is the essence. :-)

shmerl
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by shmerl » November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm

As a Linux gamer, I don't quite agree with some of your conclusions. Some of the points you are making are valid, but many are not, probably caused by not paying attention to the current Linux gaming market.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
It's that every year for the last couple of decades, or so, I've heard, "This year is the year of Linux on the desktop." But that has yet to happen, of course.
I personally don't even understand what it means. Is Linux usable as a desktop system? It clearly is, and for quite a while already. Does it mean Linux has to overcome Windows in market share? I don't think anyone expects that. So there is no point in this "year of the Linux desktop".

Let's concentrate on gaming specifically anyway, since that's what we are talking about. Linux gaming market has progressed gradually in the last decade from initial push by Humble Bundle, to major distributors like Valve and GOG backing it. The market growth is reflected primarily in three things: 1. number of actual Linux gamers. 2 number of Linux games made. 3. number of developers making them. All these three metrics are growing each year, if you pay attention. Growth reflects classic demand and supply relationship. Does it mean it's "the year of the Linux desktop"? I don't think we should care. Growth itself is a good trend.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
There is no "Linux" in the sense of their being one "windows". As there are several differing and often non-compatible versions of Linux, etc.
That's not an impediment for developers to make Linux games. Some for example concentrate on supporting a small set of distros (or even one), while others try to reduce distro specific differences with bundling of their dependencies. Both approaches work well enough and don't stop developers from releasing games for Linux. Valve developers had several presentations on how to deal with this specific topic. So it's not anything extraordinary that Linux developers wouldn't know about.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
But still, even with as small a share of the 3d gaming market today as Apple has, even Apple's tiny share of that market is a good deal larger than the Linux "desktop" gaming share
That's moot. As I said, macOS is not a good target for gaming, especially on the high end. Linux on the other hand has no technical limitations. So size of macOS user base alone isn't really an indicator of gaming market size. Linux users are more likely to play games because they actually can and their hardware allows (you can build as high end PC to play on Linux as you want). macOS users have no such option. Their hardware is too limited. Count into that the ability of Linux users to run many Windows games (through Wine/dxvk/Proton etc.). macOS has limited Wine functionality, crippled by Apple's sabotage of OpenGL and Vulkan there.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
This is a question I've asked many a so-called Linux game customer: "Do you think that the games you buy for your Linux box are materially better than those same games running under Window10x64, for instance?"
I don't think this matters. The reason to use Linux normally isn't because of "materially better games", but because Linux itself offers what Windows simply can't, from privacy respectful and DRM-free approach, to ability to customize your OS to your needs. Availability of gaming in general makes Linux even more attractive to new users.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
Hardware driver support under Linux for desktop gaming peripherals (and others) is abysmal compared to the Windows-compatible hardware driver situation--Do I want open source hardware drivers for my sometimes expensive proprietary hardware like GPUs? nVidia puts out some Linux drivers for some Linux distros--AMD doesn't--or if it does, they aren't much. Nope. Not interested.
Not that I noticed. For the most part hardware support on Linux is quite good. If you don't want proprietary drivers (I don't want them either), you don't need to use Nvidia. You aren't correct about AMD. They for a long time already support their GPU drivers in the upstream kernel and unlike Nvidia, they work with the Linux kernel developers directly on their amdgpu driver. They are also actively working on FOSS OpenGL implementation for their GPU (radeonsi). Their own Vulkan implementation (amdvlk) is also open source. And there is also an independent open implementation (radv from Mesa project) started before amdvlk was released. Most of the work in it is by Valve. So graphics situation is very good, but you wouldn't know if you don't pay attention.

What so far is in quite a disarray is open source support for VR. OpenHMD is one such project: http://www.openhmd.net
One major issue is lack of published positioning algorithms for various common VR devices. Implementing them is difficult.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
Also, I have found that people using a particular Linux distro for a desktop OS often have a very irrational hatred for Microsoft
I've seen enough very rational criticism of it, and well deserved. Irrational views can happen anywhere, but it's not like MS doesn't have a truckload of skeletons in the closet, from their anti-competitive behavior (EEE/lock-in) to DRM and patent abuse. There is no point to make things up about them, they have more than enough real things to dislike about them.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
Basically, people for whom computer gaming is a primary hobby are not going to be doing it on a Linux derivative
Growing Linux gaming market disagrees. Linux gaming is quite healthy today and improving, despite the market still being relatively small. Here is also a great article about the progress of Linux gaming: http://cheesetalks.net/proton-linux-gaming-history.php
I recommend spending time reading it, even though it's quite lengthy.

However when MS swallows successful studios making good Linux games - that's quite unpleasant for Linux gamers, and it's a pity inXile is one of them. But it won't really stop the growth, it's rather a setback.

Anyway, have fun with BT IV! I'm going to wait for Linux version to come out first :) I'm also in the middle of BT I remaster (playing it in Wine+dxvk on Linux).
Last edited by shmerl on November 21st, 2018, 1:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

eisberg
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by eisberg » November 21st, 2018, 1:10 pm

svdp wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 8:15 am
eisberg wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 3:13 am
And I'm amazed by people's lack of logic.
Historic evidence doesn't matter when it is already shown things are different than the past. Makes historical evidence irrelevant.

Logically, it makes no sense to buy up these companies that have a very specific skill set for very specific types of games only to change everything about them. No, you buy them up to let them continue to use those specific skill set to make the type of games they are known to make.
I would agree with your amazement of the lack of logic with some people, though I think we differ on the opinion whom we see applying logic and whom not.

'Historical evidence doesn't matter' is about the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard in the same breath as 'using logic', and the nominator 'when things are different' doesn't change that. Things are ALWAYS different in SOME regards; no two things were *exactly* the same, ever. Thus, this conditional variable means nothing, since it's not about whether it's 'the same', but whether a pattern can be discerned that is applicable to similar - not the same - happenstances.

For it to be not the case, you would first have to demonstrate the change is large and relevant - and getting the assurance that they will remain independent doesn't qualify, because that is already part of the established pattern - and secondly, you would need to demonstrate that this change makes it inherently impossible or at the very least extremely unlikely for the pattern to happen.

You did neither.

You failed to give a qualification for the former, and did not provide logical reasoning and arguments for the latter.

In your last part you discuss how unreasonable it would be for a parent company to change things, but you fail to note how illogical it is not to incorporate how illogical people are - even while beginning your post with this very same observation! - and thus you make the wrong conclusion, based on the equally wrong assumption that all people use strict logic, or even apply the same reasoning as you yourself. They don't. And the proof of that can be seen in the historical evidence, which you dismissed so readily. Because the reasoning given by you would be valid in all such cases, yet in practice we see big corp DO meddle, invariably, with the indies they gobbled up. EVEN with prior assurances. That it 'doesn't make sense' has never stopped them before, so it's not a counter to the argument.

As one can see, when applying logic, one must apply it consistently, or otherwise it's of little use.
And you couldn't defeat the logic at all. You could not give one logical reason why MS would want to buy up these very specialized developers to only change them from being who they are, to change what they have been known to make, basically change thier "DNA". You scream "the past" but fail to realize Micrsoft has never done anything like this before given the market at the time, and this market isn't very big for these types of games these developers make.

But , if you look at what is happening with the big publishers, they are enjoying a unsustainable growth, something that will only leas to a AAA gaming crash, notice how Microsoft isn't doing whst every other big publisher is doing to increase revenue? What MS is doing actually makes more sense for a sustainable growth, instead of throwing tens,hundreds millions at one game, where $500 million in sales a considered as a failure, make a bunch of smaller budget games that can equal or even surpass the revenue of 1 bug game and have an overall budget that is less. But that wouldn't work if MS alienates the fan base these developers already have, hence why logically it makes no sense to change them. So you are still wrong.

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Gillsing
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by Gillsing » November 21st, 2018, 1:26 pm

shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 7:02 am
eisberg wrote:
November 20th, 2018, 10:18 pm
Its in the contract that they can continue to make the kind of games they want to make, for what they are known to make. It being DRM free/Linux, ect have nothing to do with that. The only important part is they can keep on making the kind of games they are known to make.
False. DRM-free and Linux releases are kind of games they were making.
As a DRM-free Linux-user I've not really seen that as a 'kind of game' that a developer is making. I view that more as the kind of distribution method they've made available for whatever kind of game they're making. Is there any statement anywhere by inXile where they say that they're dedicated to DRM-free games for Linux? And not just kindly providing it to backers in exchange for their pledges?

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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by kilobug » November 21st, 2018, 1:29 pm

I agree on most of what you said shmerl (not surprising since I'm a Linux gamer too) but a few addition / corrections.
shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
There is no "Linux" in the sense of their being one "windows". As there are several differing and often non-compatible versions of Linux, etc.
That's not an impediment for developers to make Linux games.
Additionally, GNU/Linux has very good backward compat - it's not any harder to run Loki-era games on a modern Linux distribution than it is to run Windows 9x era games on a modern Windows. And sometimes it's even easier to run Windows 9x era games on Wine than on modern Windows ;)
shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm
That's moot. As I said, macOS is not a good target for gaming, especially on the high end.
Well it is true that Apple voluntarily sabotage OpenGL / Vlukan support on MacOS, but apart from that you can find relatively high-end Mac hardware. And perhaps more importantly, porting a game to MacOS X and to Linux is somewhat similar - it means an OpenGL renderer, Unix filesystem and process semantics, ... so if you're doing one port, doing the two at the same time isn't that much harder, and opens you two markets at once.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
This is a question I've asked many a so-called Linux game customer: "Do you think that the games you buy for your Linux box are materially better than those same games running under Window10x64, for instance?"
It's not that the game is better on Linux. But that many people (me included) much prefer using Linux for all kind of reasons, from privacy/ethical reasons, to technical reasons, to configurability (I use a tiling window-manager for example), to ... and many people (me included) are quite multi-tasking, I don't play a game straight for 3 hours without doing anything else, but I may chat, browse the web, read mails, ... and then back to the game, so a dual-boot wouldn't work for me.

I don't think this matters. The reason to use Linux normally isn't because of "materially better games", but because Linux itself offers what Windows simply can't, from privacy respectful and DRM-free approach, to ability to customize your OS to your needs. Availability of gaming in general makes Linux even more attractive to new users.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
Hardware driver support under Linux for desktop gaming peripherals (and others) is abysmal compared to the Windows-compatible hardware driver situation--Do I want open source hardware drivers for my sometimes expensive proprietary hardware like GPUs? nVidia puts out some Linux drivers for some Linux distros--AMD doesn't--or if it does, they aren't much. Nope. Not interested.
As shmerl answered, AMD has very good out-of-the-box Linux support nowadays, and the free software driver stack, Mesa, is truly awesome - unlike proprietary drivers which are very heavy to download and install, very specific to the constructor, ... you have a single driver stack, with many parts of it shared between different hardware and only a relatively thin hardware-specific layer, and all is updated with the rest of the system transparently. And performances on modern AMD hardware between Mesa (radeonsi + amdgpu kernel driver) are very close to the ones you have on Windows with the latest proprietary driver.
shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm
What so far is in quite a disarray is open source support for VR.
That's true, but I personally don't care, I'm not interested at all by VR.
waltc wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:01 am
Basically, people for whom computer gaming is a primary hobby are not going to be doing it on a Linux derivative
Well, unless they are themselves are either geeks who like Linux as a versatile and powerful platform, or ethic-oriented people who like the Free Software movement philosophy and protection of privacy. Or both at once like me. Which may not be a very large population in market share, but is still a non-negligeable one, and also one who tend to be quite vocal, so having good Linux support gives you lots of PR for a relatively low cost ;)
shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm
However when MS swallows successful studios making good Linux games - that's quite unpleasant for Linux gamers, and it's a pity inXile is one of them. However it won't really stop the growth, it's rather a setback.
Indeed...
shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 12:38 pm
Anyway, have fun with BT IV! I'm going to wait for Linux version to come out first :) I'm also in the middle of BT I remaster (playing it in Wine+dxvk on Linux).
For myself, currently playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which does a Linux version :)

shmerl
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by shmerl » November 21st, 2018, 1:35 pm

Gillsing wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:26 pm
As a DRM-free Linux-user I've not really seen that as a 'kind of game' that a developer is making. I view that more as the kind of distribution method they've made available for whatever kind of game they're making
Sure, it doesn't define art, genre or game design and etc, but it defines the simple choice of whether you'll even consider getting this game to begin with, if you avoid DRMed ones. Question of genre and etc. doesn't even start before this one :) So it's not really less important for DRM-free users.
Gillsing wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:26 pm
Is there any statement anywhere by inXile where they say that they're dedicated to DRM-free games for Linux? And not just kindly providing it to backers in exchange for their pledges?
I've seen one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHVaumwafE&t=17m13s
Last edited by shmerl on November 21st, 2018, 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shmerl
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by shmerl » November 21st, 2018, 1:49 pm

kilobug wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:29 pm
For myself, currently playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which does a Linux version :)
I've heard it has some issues with missing add-ons in Linux versions. I haven't bought it yet, but plan to.

svdp
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by svdp » November 21st, 2018, 2:56 pm

eisberg wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:10 pm
And you couldn't defeat the logic at all. You could not give one logical reason why MS would want to buy up these very specialized developers to only change them from being who they are, to change what they have been known to make, basically change thier "DNA". You scream "the past" but fail to realize Micrsoft has never done anything like this before given the market at the time, and this market isn't very big for these types of games these developers make.

But , if you look at what is happening with the big publishers, they are enjoying a unsustainable growth, something that will only leas to a AAA gaming crash, notice how Microsoft isn't doing whst every other big publisher is doing to increase revenue? What MS is doing actually makes more sense for a sustainable growth, instead of throwing tens,hundreds millions at one game, where $500 million in sales a considered as a failure, make a bunch of smaller budget games that can equal or even surpass the revenue of 1 bug game and have an overall budget that is less. But that wouldn't work if MS alienates the fan base these developers already have, hence why logically it makes no sense to change them. So you are still wrong.
*Defeat* the logic? Who the f- would want to defeat logic? I *USE* logic, but in contrast with you, I use it consistently. The idea that anyone would want to 'defeat logic' is beyond me, because it's exactly logic that is the only way forward in any discussion. To try to defeat logic is to try to defeat your own argument.

You clearly did not pay attention to anything I said. You claim they do not have any logical reason, yet I already showed you the eroor in your ways of thinking all decisions are logical. You yourself agreed and made the observation that people aren't always logical, so why are you now insisting they need a 'logical' reason for it? You're contradicting yourself. If people can act illogical, than they do not need logical reasons to do something neither. Can't you even see the basic logic in that?

Now, what can be a non-logical reason? Well, simply the fact they think they can do better and make better decisions, and - actually not that illogical for a company - make decisions based on maximizing profits, instead of game-depth. You see that with MS, Activision, EA, and even Bethesda these days. This is especially true if the company ever fails, or is not as successful as hoped for, when launching a game. Then the parent company says: well, that wasn't working, but WE'll improve it. And then the managers that always know best, and the accountants that always know best come out of the woodwork and tell how it should be done. There can be myriad of different reasons, in fact, but they all boil down to trying to influence the 'independent' company to produce a product THEY want. That's what it boils down to. And that's what we've sen happening, over and over again. One would think it a learning school, but just like you, often the indies don't see - or more correctly, don't WISH to see what it will turn out to.

It's like one of the other poster told you: it's the same reasoning - if you can call it that - that women who get abused use: "Oh, but THIS time is different. THIS time he won't hit me, he promised!"

With your last sentence, you prove you still don't get it. What you're saying is the exact RATIONALE that is outwardly given TO gobble up indies, and which indies use as reason. It is, objectively speaking, not an unreasonable one - otherwise it wouldn't work in the first place. But, and that's the point, it's never UPHOLD. It's a purely theoretical construct, and when push comes to shove, indies ALWAYS loose out in the long run. The examples of it are plentiful, but you just choose to ignore it all, waiving it away dismissively with one hand, claiming "But that was in the past, now it REALLY is different" for the 100th time. Just like the husband promising: "that was in the past, I'll NEVER hit you anymore."

The past, my friend, is not to be so easily disregarded, because then you only repeat the same mistakes. As, indeed, many prove, time and again.

I also note that you didn't actually counter any of the things I said, so I'm left wondering how truthful your professed zeal for logic really is, frankly. You're being willfully obtuse and/or blind, and there is no helping that. "MS has never done that"... they've basically - including the assurances of independence - done that to many, many others. They (an their IP) either fell silent, were disbanded, or struggled to get free from MS again: FASA STUDIOS, BUNGIE, DIGITAL ANVIL, ENSEMBLE, RARE, LIONHEAD, BIGPARK, TWISTED PIXEL GAMES, etc. The list goes on and on, and all were either closed down and disbanded, or are only a shadow of their former selves, making something totally different, or... some fought to get their independence back because they realized the dead end they were put in. And yes, almost all of them got assurances that they would have large levels of 'independence'. It doesn't mean shite, my friend.

But, you know... THIS time will be different. Really. :lol:

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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by eisberg » November 21st, 2018, 4:21 pm

That is a whole lot of nothing up there. You didn't say anything thst was logical at all, you keep relying on the past only and not looking at current events and trends that show what the future is going to be like.
And yes, I did counter your illogical argument with real logic, but you fail to recognize it. You are stuck to much in the past to recognize the present and what it means for the future.

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Gillsing
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by Gillsing » November 21st, 2018, 10:17 pm

shmerl wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:35 pm
Gillsing wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 1:26 pm
Is there any statement anywhere by inXile where they say that they're dedicated to DRM-free games for Linux? And not just kindly providing it to backers in exchange for their pledges?
I've seen one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHVaumwafE&t=17m13s
Brian Fargo seemed to mostly talk about what the backers want, and then ending with this:
"They're very vocal about it. And we don't mind. We try to support them where we can, because they're amongst the most loyal to us. So we try to recognize that."

"We don't mind" and "we try to support" and "we try to recognize" all sound more like 'kindly providing in exchange' rather than 'dedicated to it'. Like it's what backers want, and not something that inXile wants. And while the relationship with the backers/fans might have been 'everything' at that time, he keeps mentioning that they have to survive as a business. So it doesn't seem to me that they define the games they're making as primarily DRM-free and/or for Linux, and that that would therefore be the 'kind of games' they're making.

svdp
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by svdp » November 21st, 2018, 11:05 pm

eisberg wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 4:21 pm
That is a whole lot of nothing up there. You didn't say anything thst was logical at all, you keep relying on the past only and not looking at current events and trends that show what the future is going to be like.
And yes, I did counter your illogical argument with real logic, but you fail to recognize it. You are stuck to much in the past to recognize the present and what it means for the future.
Tssk. You're not even trying anymore.

You sound like the endless loop of a broken record repeating the things an equally broken woman says: "My husband will never hit me again. Because this 100th time, things are *really* different. He changed. He promised! After all, there is no logical reason to hit me, right? Can you name a logical reason? Well, there you go; proof he won't hit me anymore!"

And no, you countered nothing of my points, since you didn't address even one of them.
Last edited by svdp on November 23rd, 2018, 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

shmerl
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Re: inXile Entertainment joins Microsoft Studios

Post by shmerl » November 21st, 2018, 11:32 pm

Gillsing wrote:
November 21st, 2018, 10:17 pm
So it doesn't seem to me that they define the games they're making as primarily DRM-free and/or for Linux, and that that would therefore be the 'kind of games' they're making.
Crowdfunding was crucial to them, so it defined the games they were making. As Kickstarter interviewer pointed right in the interview. That's why I'm skeptical about "we'll continue doing the same" in regards to acquisition.

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