Vault-Tec

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 22nd, 2017, 3:54 pm

Explains why 2 was so damn buggy.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 23rd, 2017, 12:05 pm

SagaDC wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am
Like I said, I always felt that the Vault Experiment and the Enclave were essentially introduced to justify eachother's existence. For better or worse, it's part of the mainstream continuity now.
That and those crates full of waterchips at vault 8 were such a lovely touch though :D Although to be fair, without the Vault Experiment they'd be writing themselves into a corner.. After all they wanted to maintain a sense of desolation and desperation, and the post-apoc dystopian society gave them ample opportunity to set their own pace to explore aspects of human nature through different groups. Meanwhile having all these hightech pre-war very traditional groups springing up all across the USA like mushrooms after the rain would not serve that purpose and likely would have give the enclave too much human and otherwise resources to be opposed.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 23rd, 2017, 8:22 pm

I dunno. Fallout 4 is really the only game that requires a twisted vault experiment. FO2 and NV don't even have you as a vault resident. While 3 does use a vault experiment to further the plot (that whole Tranquility Lane thing), that could have easily been moved or done differently; just look at FO4.

While the experiments gave us some interesting (and chilling) locations, the mad experiments were hardly necessary for the direction the games went.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 23rd, 2017, 10:21 pm

If the Vaults purpose was as advertised, to serve as a refuge in case of nuclear war, and not part of a crazy experiment then you have few problems. From the top of my head:

Having 100+ vaults with population of ~200 people, means at least 20,000 of educated and trained personnel with 100+ garden creation kits and vast resources compared to the wretches of the wasteland..

* Why the Vaults were only wired to receive the all clear but had no basic communication systems? -- Because if they did then (A) they would be able to organize and start the rebuilding effort likely with the enclave at the head, and that would fuck up with our post-apoc setting too much. (B) knowing where the vaults are and what happened there would have take away the sense of mystery and uncertainly that lend well toward exploration/discovery.
* Why didn't the enclave helped Vault 13 with its water chip situation in FO1?
* If vault city got the all clear signal, why didn't they all? -- because that would restrict their timline
* Why didn't the enclave utilize the vast resources of the vaults? Especially after they learned that they have competition.

Overall without these failed experiments and Enclave shizms you'd have hard time to explain the existence of Vault Vity (vault 8) and NCR (vault 15) organizing outside of the enclave power structure and influence.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by SagaDC » June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am

Drool wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 8:22 pm
Fallout 4 is really the only game that requires a twisted vault experiment.
I have mixed feelings about Vault 111, but it does have some interesting concepts behind it. Most notably, that's one of the Vaults that was actually never intended to last through the war. They simply didn't have the resources to survive, but the personnel assigned to it went along with the experiment anyway because they were assured that they would receive the "all clear" symbol within a relatively short period of time (twenty years?).

The sole purpose of the vault was apparently to test the viability of the cryogenics technology, and literally everyone there was expendable - both the vault residents (test subjects) and the personnel. I kind of like that whole idea, especially the "irony" of one of the disposable test subjects surviving while everyone else died (though the specific reasoning behind the survival is absurd).

But what makes it extra-weird is that there was already a rich history of cryogenics experimentation in the Fallout lore, which made the Vault 111 experiment ultimately pointless. Fallout 2 already showed us that the military prior to the war had access to functional cryogenics tech. Fallout 3 also showed us that Vault-Tec already had access to functional cryogenics tech as well. RobCo also had similar (but much more limited) cryo-tech, and apparently the aliens (sigh) had it too.

If Vault 111 had been activated before the war, to test the tech before they actually needed it, then it would have made more sense (trigger an "early alarm" in a remote town, get all the test subjects to file into the shelter, freeze them up to see if the tech works). But activating that vault experiment after the bombs went off makes it a lot more problematic from a timeline perspective.
Drool wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 8:22 pm
FO2 and NV don't even have you as a vault resident. While 3 does use a vault experiment to further the plot (that whole Tranquility Lane thing), that could have easily been moved or done differently; just look at FO4.
Ironically, I think Vault 112 wasn't actually part of the official Vault Experiment. I think that was literally just Doctor Braun's personal playground, made at his request, and likely not part of anything Enclave-related.

Vault 112 is also one of the main things that makes Vault 111 completely redundant, since it made it clear that Braun had already invented fully functional cryogenics tech (as well as various other pieces of miracle-technology).
Drool wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 8:22 pm
While the experiments gave us some interesting (and chilling) locations, the mad experiments were hardly necessary for the direction the games went.
There's no denying that they've become increasingly silly or outrageous in the Bethesda-made games. But then again, Bethesda has also been much more insistent on portraying pre-war America as an over-the-top dystopian nightmare. Asbestos hidden in everything, Cthuhlu cults, glowing soda that melts your insides, harmless toys that are actually alien weapons designed to murder children.

Most of the experiments portrayed in FO1, FO2, and FONV were much tamer in comparison. The "Las Vegas" vault was obviously pretty extreme, since it involved exposing residents to high levels of radiation, but most of the other "classic" vaults were comparatively harmless social experiments that didn't involve anywhere near the amount of murder that the "east coast" vaults did.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 24th, 2017, 12:53 am

For me, the series ended with Fallout 2.

I have FO3, and NV, but I use them as one might use Gary's Mod. I racked up more time in the GECK (and testing), that I ever did playing the campaign itself.

I have never encountered the Enclave in FO3. and until very recently, I'd not entered the New Vegas map.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 24th, 2017, 10:23 am

SagaDC wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am
I have mixed feelings about Vault 111, but it does have some interesting concepts behind it.
Yeah, I had the same mixed feelings about FO2, FO3 and FO:NV.
  • I get the whole scenery change but never liked the whole tribal start of FO2. Despite that this game has offered me the most joy over the years.
  • I understand why FO3 did the whole life in the vault exposition (to establish its setting for mostly people who were new to it, large portion of who were not familiar with whole cold war nuclear threat and duck and cover realities, and the prevalent at the time post-apoc themes) But I HATED the slog of being forced through it and had to mod it out.
  • I love FO:NV use of amnesia because gave me agency from the start but as the game unfolded that aspect of the story felt underdeveloped and lacked character, probably because the whole 'blank slate' compromise.
As for FO4, I thought it was smart way of introducing the setting, giving you a reason to care and tied into their build mechanics.. But at this point I am so tiered of all open-world games that I couldn't bring myself to play through it.
SagaDC wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am
Ironically, I think Vault 112 wasn't actually part of the official Vault Experiment. I think that was literally just Doctor Braun's personal playground, made at his request, and likely not part of anything Enclave-related.

Vault 112 is also one of the main things that makes Vault 111 completely redundant, since it made it clear that Braun had already invented fully functional cryogenics tech (as well as various other pieces of miracle-technology).
Is it though? I believe it had to be some sort of suspended animation for the original occupants to survive all those years but I am not sure it was actually cryogenic tech, since that would slow your brain function to a point that will precluding you from participating in the VR..

I have spent very little time with that game and had togo to the pedia to remind myself of what vault112 was, so pardon my ignorance. But were we shown that any of the originals occupants didn't age much or did Braun just thrown in extras over time? And if it was cryo pods, given that it was Braun's unofficial experiment in his personal playground, isn't it plausible that Braun developed this tech simultaneously or skipped testing phases in favor expediency?

I would imagine that since the Enclave planed at some point to place their fortune in the starts (if that is still the cannon) then extensive testing would be needed before you can send a ship on journey that would last decades stranded in the vast expanse of space. Meanwhile doc could always find replacement mechanical or otherwise, no?
Drool wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 8:22 pm
Most of the experiments portrayed in FO1, FO2, and FONV were much tamer in comparison. The "Las Vegas" vault was obviously pretty extreme, since it involved exposing residents to high levels of radiation, but most of the other "classic" vaults were comparatively harmless social experiments that didn't involve anywhere near the amount of murder that the "east coast" vaults did.
To be fair, FO1 vaults were designed before Tim came with the idea of Vault tec experiments for the sequel. And FO2 only had three vaults, two which were established in FO1, and third one was one of the rare success stories in the whole series that turned into Vault city, still it didn't stop them from bringing the enclave and intelligent deathclaws to the party ( one of the things they did to make sure that the enclave are the bad guys really comes across )

In comparison FONV which used Bethesda open world engine, had 6 new vaults to explore and is much more consistent with FO3 and FO4 with its gruesome experiments.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm

Remo wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 10:21 pm
Having 100+ vaults with population of ~200 people, means at least 20,000 of educated and trained personnel with 100+ garden creation kits and vast resources compared to the wretches of the wasteland.
Sort of. The GECKs are pretty hit or miss in their distribution. They also smack of FO2 ridiculousness and super-tech.
Remo wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 10:21 pm
* Why the Vaults were only wired to receive the all clear but had no basic communication systems? -- Because if they did then (A) they would be able to organize and start the rebuilding effort likely with the enclave at the head, and that would fuck up with our post-apoc setting too much. (B) knowing where the vaults are and what happened there would have take away the sense of mystery and uncertainly that lend well toward exploration/discovery.
* If vault city got the all clear signal, why didn't they all? -- because that would restrict their timline
* Why didn't the enclave utilize the vast resources of the vaults? Especially after they learned that they have competition.
These are only problems that crop up because of FO2 creating the Enclave. There was no "all clear" signal in 1 and no signal was really necessary. And personally, I would argue that an all clear signal is pretty ridiculous on its face. Not all areas would be clear on the same time scale, and it also requires some nearly omniscient being who can A) survive the war itself, B) be in the first area to be clear, C) be able to monitor the conditions at all 100-some odd vaults, and D) be able to send a signal to the vaults despite the devastation, EMP, and everything else.
Remo wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 10:21 pm
* Why didn't the enclave helped Vault 13 with its water chip situation in FO1?
A plot hole only generated by FO2 creating the Enclave and retroactively rewriting FO1. They didn't have the chip because of a supply SNAFU. No nefarious (or neglectful) organization needed. Again, the Enclave just creates more plot holes than it spackles over.
Remo wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 10:21 pm
Overall without these failed experiments and Enclave shizms you'd have hard time to explain the existence of Vault Vity (vault 8) and NCR (vault 15) organizing outside of the enclave power structure and influence.
I don't see how. Vault 8 got a GECK. They went out and made Vault City. Vault 15 left and eventually formed the NCR. Frankly, that's how it was supposed to happen. Again, no Enclave necessary.
SagaDC wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am
The sole purpose of the vault was apparently to test the viability of the cryogenics technology, and literally everyone there was expendable - both the vault residents (test subjects) and the personnel. I kind of like that whole idea, especially the "irony" of one of the disposable test subjects surviving while everyone else died (though the specific reasoning behind the survival is absurd).
See? Even within the accepted framework, it doesn't make sense. Now we have to add issues of portions of VaultCo not knowing what other divisions are doing. Just adding more and more duct tape to try and hold the thing together.

God help us when Fallout 5 rolls around.
SagaDC wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am
Ironically, I think Vault 112 wasn't actually part of the official Vault Experiment. I think that was literally just Doctor Braun's personal playground, made at his request, and likely not part of anything Enclave-related.
...maybe? I always got the impression that he realized he could live forever as a god in the simulation and went nuts.
SagaDC wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:34 am
Most of the experiments portrayed in FO1, FO2, and FONV were much tamer in comparison. The "Las Vegas" vault was obviously pretty extreme, since it involved exposing residents to high levels of radiation, but most of the other "classic" vaults were comparatively harmless social experiments that didn't involve anywhere near the amount of murder that the "east coast" vaults did.
Um... Vault 3, 19 and 21 were reasonably normal, 22 was plant people, 34 was petty but still cruel, but 11 was a goddamn horrorshow,. I wager 11 more than makes up for all the others, and is possibly the worst one to date.
Gizmo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 12:53 am
For me, the series ended with Fallout 2.
You might have mentioned this once or twice before, yeah.
Remo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 10:23 am
I get the whole scenery change but never liked the whole tribal start of FO2.
I didn't mind the tribal twist. The Temple of Trials, on the other hand...
Remo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 10:23 am
I understand why FO3 did the whole life in the vault exposition (to establish its setting for mostly people who were new to it, large portion of who were not familiar with whole cold war nuclear threat and duck and cover realities, and the prevalent at the time post-apoc themes) But I HATED the slog of being forced through it and had to mod it out.
The forced aspect was kinda balls, but I liked the perspective shift. It gave you a chance to see life inside the vault (which was only touched on in FO1), and helped showed that, no, life wasn't all sunshine and roses inside the vault, even if nothing particularly bad was happening. I found it some of the better writing in the game.

But then, I actually liked Mothership Zero #confessyourunpopularopinion #comeatmebro
Remo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 10:23 am
As for FO4, I thought it was smart way of introducing the setting, giving you a reason to care and tied into their build mechanics.
Yeahbut. It only took me about ten minutes to get sick of the whole "Have you seen Shaun?" thing. The fact that I couldn't stop thinking of Heavy Rain didn't help matters ( https://youtu.be/DAhG9D9UO7c ).
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 24th, 2017, 8:29 pm

Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
Sort of. The GECKs are pretty hit or miss in their distribution. They also smack of FO2 ridiculousness and super-tech.
The GECK pre-dates Fallout 2. It's not in Fallout, but the when development team was informed that there would be a sequel, they hastily added a mock advertisement to the back of the game manual. It was for the Garden of Eden Creation Kit; a potential plot seed for Fallout 2.

Image

**Of course, you'll notice that it's not implied as a terraforming device.
I didn't mind the tribal twist. The Temple of Trials, on the other hand...
I didn't mind the Temple of Trials—which IRRC the dev team was forced to include. You didn't actually have to fight those ants though. They had animal AI, and so lost their first turn against you, and you could also simply sneak to the end of the temple. If you got attacked you could actually sneak out of the fight by moving 6 hex away from them, and (with the skill active) choosing to end combat.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 25th, 2017, 8:41 pm

Gizmo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:29 pm
I didn't mind the Temple of Trials—which IRRC the dev team was forced to include. You didn't actually have to fight those ants though.
I dunno. I just found it very annoying.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Lord of Riva » June 26th, 2017, 9:35 am

Drool wrote:
June 25th, 2017, 8:41 pm
Gizmo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:29 pm
I didn't mind the Temple of Trials—which IRRC the dev team was forced to include. You didn't actually have to fight those ants though.
I dunno. I just found it very annoying.
whats wrong with it? Or is it just that you feel its unnecessary tutorialisation?

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 26th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Lord of Riva wrote:
June 26th, 2017, 9:35 am
Or is it just that you feel its unnecessary tutorialisation?
Oh I certainly thought that of it. I also thought it a monumental effort that was impossible for such a small tribe to make in so few years, with so little reason to do it; as to make it absurd... unless it's made of fiberglass. If it was stone, (and not a remnant carnival/theme-park attraction) the tribe would have had to have started building it the day they were founded by the Vault Dweller.

It's purpose in the game was unnecessary, equally so after the first time through it. They could have offered a choice to skip it, and assigned a default outcome of the conversation at the end; or even an outcome based on the PC's statistics.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 26th, 2017, 8:51 pm

Lord of Riva wrote:
June 26th, 2017, 9:35 am
whats wrong with it? Or is it just that you feel its unnecessary tutorialisation?
Unnecessary, overly long, and unenjoyable.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Grohal » June 28th, 2017, 1:06 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
June 26th, 2017, 9:35 am
Drool wrote:
June 25th, 2017, 8:41 pm
Gizmo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:29 pm
I didn't mind the Temple of Trials—which IRRC the dev team was forced to include. You didn't actually have to fight those ants though.
I dunno. I just found it very annoying.
whats wrong with it? Or is it just that you feel its unnecessary tutorialisation?
I heard many complains about the Temple over the years and while it was surely not the best part of Fallout 2 I never had a problem with having to play it.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 28th, 2017, 9:13 am

Drool wrote:
June 26th, 2017, 8:51 pm
Lord of Riva wrote:
June 26th, 2017, 9:35 am
whats wrong with it? Or is it just that you feel its unnecessary tutorialisation?
Unnecessary, overly long, and unenjoyable.
Yeah.. multiplied by many many playthroughs.
Gizmo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:29 pm
I didn't mind the Temple of Trials—which IRRC the dev team was forced to include. You didn't actually have to fight those ants though. They had animal AI, and so lost their first turn against you, and you could also simply sneak to the end of the temple. If you got attacked you could actually sneak out of the fight by moving 6 hex away from them, and (with the skill active) choosing to end combat.
You can but that was mainly an option for slow starting character builds.. Lets face it, the promise of extra exp makes us giddy like an old laddy on a slot machine. And this is one of the main reasons I don't play open world games anymore, because my inner completionist tend to get bogged down by such fluff that is aimed at those who can put in hundreds of hours into one playthrough.
Grohal wrote:
June 28th, 2017, 1:06 am
I heard many complains about the Temple over the years and while it was surely not the best part of Fallout 2 I never had a problem with having to play it.
The same can be said of Fallout 3 intro.. The vast majority never had any problem with it, but I had to mod it out.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 28th, 2017, 9:31 am

Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
These are only problems that crop up because of FO2 creating the Enclave.
To be fair, any setting can me combed for problems, many things that make it interesting aren't very realistic and should be looked in broad strokes. (particularly the time scale)

Anyway, I think that any government that would invest in such project would also have command and military vaults to organize things, that all facilities would have been wired for communication, that people inside would have to be monitoring conditions on the outside and later working in cooperation to reestablish civilization. So why Vault 13 was left in the dark, where was the remnants of the government/military, why no one came to help or re-established communications given that the conditions outside were obviously survivable ( Brotherhood of Steel origins case and point )

Overall, I think that their choice addressed the above and gave them more options creatively to mold the setting as they want it in the longrun. Giving us FO2 that comes on the heels of FO1 in the same region without worrying what happened to the rest of the world/vaults and continuity issues for future fallout's..
Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
Sort of. The GECKs are pretty hit or miss in their distribution. They also smack of FO2 ridiculousness and super-tech.
Yeah, the GECK is the Fallout universe Holly Grail! --It also emphasis my previous point, if not all vaults had GECKs why there was no basic communications?! Certainly it would make sense that vaults would be specialized and need to work together to rebuild society, some would have monitoring equipment, others have heavy equipment (what if a vault unable to open because its buried by tons of ruble), others would be seed vaults etc.
Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
Remo wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 10:23 am
I understand why FO3 did the whole life in the vault exposition (to establish its setting for mostly people who were new to it, large portion of who were not familiar with whole cold war nuclear threat and duck and cover realities, and the prevalent at the time post-apoc themes) But I HATED the slog of being forced through it and had to mod it out.
The forced aspect was kinda balls, but I liked the perspective shift. It gave you a chance to see life inside the vault (which was only touched on in FO1), and helped showed that, no, life wasn't all sunshine and roses inside the vault, even if nothing particularly bad was happening. I found it some of the better writing in the game.
That perspective shift is also why I liked FO4 intro. It showed us the pre-war america for the first time and was a nice contrast to the post war desolation, helping us to solidify the feeling of loss/nostalgia/longing for what was, and is expressed through the rest of the setting. I think it was a really smart choice and lend well toward their optional rebuild mechanic.

Speaking off, from what I seen you can re-establish the commonwealth; the people you save can join your settlements, where you can revisit them and if you don't pay attention they can be killed in raids; You can expand said settlements and as the commonwealth growth start to see minuteman patrols keeping the peace on the roads, and caravans moving about. You can use flares to call in reinforcements from nearby commonwealth settlements to help in tough situations etc

Now, generally Bethesda has always got rep for its RPGs, they are not known for having the prettiest graphics, best combat mechanics.. well.. pretty much best anything other than creating vast open world games. But I think this is the first time I seen a major step toward creating a more reactive worlds which we have been asked for decades.. so kodus to them.
Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
Yeahbut. It only took me about ten minutes to get sick of the whole "Have you seen Shaun?" thing. The fact that I couldn't stop thinking of Heavy Rain didn't help matters ( https://youtu.be/DAhG9D9UO7c ).
I think its console only title so I never played that, But My god that is excruciating.. Shauuuuuuuuuuuun :lol:

EDIT:
Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
But then, I actually liked Mothership Zero #confessyourunpopularopinion #comeatmebro
I never got to play it and most of FO3 DLCs. But I have to ask.. were the subject of alien anal probing was brought up or hinted at, and if so what the FO universe canon on that front.. :shock: :P
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 28th, 2017, 10:03 am

Drool wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 8:13 pm
Yeahbut. It only took me about ten minutes to get sick of the whole "Have you seen Shaun?" thing. The fact that I couldn't stop thinking of Heavy Rain didn't help matters ( https://youtu.be/DAhG9D9UO7c ).
There's an eight month old comment further down on that page, that says, "Fallout 4 in a nutshell". :lol:

**Was the glitch doing the yelling, or was the glitch continually allowing the player to shout the name by pressing X?

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 28th, 2017, 8:51 pm

Remo wrote:
June 28th, 2017, 9:31 am
That perspective shift is also why I liked FO4 intro. It showed us the pre-war america for the first time and was a nice contrast to the post war desolation, helping us to solidify the feeling of loss/nostalgia/longing for what was, and is expressed through the rest of the setting. I think it was a really smart choice and lend well toward their optional rebuild mechanic.
True. And it was less draggy than 3.
Remo wrote:
June 28th, 2017, 9:31 am
Speaking off, from what I seen you can re-establish the commonwealth; the people you save can join your settlements, where you can revisit them and if you don't pay attention they can be killed in raids
True, but it's very poorly implemented. You quickly reach the point where you either ignore it, or just pay off the raiders for your people back.
Remo wrote:
June 28th, 2017, 9:31 am
I never got to play it and most of FO3 DLCs. But I have to ask.. were the subject of alien anal probing was brought up or hinted at, and if so what the FO universe canon on that front.
I don't believe so.
Gizmo wrote:
June 28th, 2017, 10:03 am
Was the glitch doing the yelling, or was the glitch continually allowing the player to shout the name by pressing X?
If I understand it correctly, the glitch lets you keep pressing X to yell.
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