Vault-Tec

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Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 17th, 2017, 3:53 pm

...makes no damn sense. And you can't blame Bethesda for this. The Vault-Tec experiments go back to Fallout 2, retroactively turning a clerical error in Fallout 1 into another experiment.

Basically, the experiments don't make any sense with even the supposed purpose of the Vaults. Just who exactly was supposed to use all this data? These are long term shelters for all out nuclear war. One of the vaults was supposed to be sealed for 200 years to act as a control group. These experiments were clearly designed with the long term in mind, and to deal with massive nuclear war. So who was going to get all this data? Did they assume they'd ride out the war? That the government could continue through a nuclear war and two centuries? Hell, why would anyone even want that data? Even if someone survived to make use of it, why would they want it? What would they do with it?

Interplay took a spot of bad luck in Fallout and turned it into a running joke (the Fallout Bible has dozens of vaults listed). Bethesda then took that joke an ran wild with it. And we're left with something that makes no blasted sense, and it's really kind of annoying.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by SagaDC » June 17th, 2017, 4:36 pm

I always assumed that the Enclave were the ones who wanted all of that information. They seemed to have a vested interest in several of the pivotal research projects that helped to shape the Fallout setting, including projects handled by companies like Vault-Tec, West Tek, and Poseidon Energy.

The whole vault project thing wasn't introduced until Fallout 2, which just happens to be the same time they introduced the Enclave. I really feel like they were intended to basically justify eachother's existence.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 17th, 2017, 5:27 pm

From what I recall reading (somewhere)... the vault experiment (I think!?) was Tim Cain's idea? The FO1 team had written an outline for the new game before leaving to found Troika. IRRC they said it was shaping up, and the new team had implemented the car before the others left. I wasn't on the BI forums, so you'd have to ask those who were.

The Enclave were destroyed in Fallout 2; at most there were straggling squads left patrolling the outer perimeter at Navarro; none of whom should have been too anxious to announce their association with the Enclave, after both the rig, and their one (understaffed) toe-hold on the mainland (Navarro) were destroyed. Bethesda cherry picked a few of the recognizable IP names (including Bottle-Caps, and Ghouls) to drape their TES clone in a Fallout-inspired re-skin. Both ghouls and caps were on the decline. Caps had been replaced with an official dollar, and ghouls (being sterile, and all originating in the Necropolis event) were dying off, as the first and last of their generation...Also the last living reminders of the great war; some of whom (presumably) being the only ones left to have personally seen the world as it was before.

As I understand it, the Enclave had administrative control over Posiedo-Net. It's how they sent the 'All Clear' message to the Vault 13 inhabitants (whom they then shot); seen in the intro cinematic (of Fallout 2); also seen when the Enclave exchange operator answers the call from the Gecko nuclear power plant. It's even plausible that they could have logged into the PC's own Pipboy; had they known, or thought to try.

I suspect (and actually hope*) that none of the Bethesda Dev's understood the setting in the least, Some of the developers hadn't even heard of the games, let alone played them.

*It would be even more insidious if a few of them (Todd, Emil, Pete?) actually did understand the setting, and decided it was too complicated for mainstream... and reduced it to what we saw in FO3. Emil & Pete at least, we can assume knew (and had very likely played) Fallout. They were both writing game reviews at the Adrenaline Vault back then.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Woolfe » June 18th, 2017, 6:52 pm

In all fairness, does it need to make sense?

Its exactly that sort of insanity that would lead to, and come from, groups like the enclave.

And of course it allowed for this
https://web.archive.org/web/20081208024 ... cade.html#

Which also sums up a potential answer to your question.

"The Vaults were never meant to save anyone"
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 18th, 2017, 7:56 pm

Woolfe wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 6:52 pm
In all fairness, does it need to make sense?
On the one hand, no. On the other, it just niggles at the back of my mind.
"The Vaults were never meant to save anyone"
Well, sure. I get that and I'm fine with that. The problem I have is that what they were designed to do just don't make sense.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 18th, 2017, 8:09 pm

Woolfe wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 6:52 pm
Its exactly that sort of insanity that would lead to, and come from, groups like the enclave.
Groups like the enclave? as in oversized villain plot tool ;)
Drool wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 7:56 pm
Well, sure. I get that and I'm fine with that. The problem I have is that what they were designed to do just don't make sense.
It does make sense if you look at it as a plot device

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Woolfe » June 18th, 2017, 11:36 pm

Remo wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 8:09 pm
Woolfe wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 6:52 pm
Its exactly that sort of insanity that would lead to, and come from, groups like the enclave.
Groups like the enclave? as in oversized villain plot tool ;)
Oh I know and agree. But *Shrug* what am I gunna do.

I can't win when I whinge and complain about an issue I care about, so why would I do it for this one :o :roll: :lol:
Remo wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 8:09 pm
Drool wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 7:56 pm
Well, sure. I get that and I'm fine with that. The problem I have is that what they were designed to do just don't make sense.
It does make sense if you look at it as a plot device
Plus we would have missed out on "One man and a crate of Puppets". I hope everyone skipped back to the first and read that. For some reason it is opening on the last page of the comic.

I guess it could be theorised that at first they never expected to actually get into a Nuclear war, so the vaults became a sop to the public. Then they got perverted by the enclave.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Remo » June 19th, 2017, 7:03 am

Here is an imgur gallery link

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Woolfe » June 19th, 2017, 4:35 pm

Remo wrote:
June 19th, 2017, 7:03 am
Here is an imgur gallery link
That's a better link cheers.

And apparently Imgur is working for me at work again...
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 19th, 2017, 9:41 pm

Woolfe wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 11:36 pm
I guess it could be theorised that at first they never expected to actually get into a Nuclear war, so the vaults became a sop to the public. Then they got perverted by the enclave.
Nope. Not buying it. First, if they never expected nuclear war, then having the vaults be twisted experiments makes even less sense. Why spend all that time and money (including hiring people for nefarious tasks, or designing mainframes) if it was just a bomb shelter scam. Now, if none of the doors worked because they saved money by making them metal-clad plastic, it would make sense, but the Evil Experiments increases their costs. That's not how a sop to the public works: you pretend to do things, not actually do extra (secret) things.

Furthermore, wasn't the Enclave the post-war remnants of the US government? If the Enclave didn't exist until after the war, they could hardly corrupt the vault project.

The more you dig, the less sense it makes. Sure, things like Vault 11 have some of the best writing in the game, but it certainly doesn't make any damn sense. It's fridge logic at its finest.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by SagaDC » June 19th, 2017, 10:56 pm

Drool wrote:
June 19th, 2017, 9:41 pm
Furthermore, wasn't the Enclave the post-war remnants of the US government? If the Enclave didn't exist until after the war, they could hardly corrupt the vault project.
I generally assume that the Enclave existed before the war, they just weren't called the Enclave back then. They were essentially the "Deep State" that all the conspiracy theorists like to talk about. I don't know if it was ever outright confirmed, but it's implied that they backed numerous pre-war military experiments and research projects, including the development of things like the New Plague and the Forced Evolutionary Virus (which was notably used to create Frank Horrigan).

It's also implied that they bankrolled companies like Vault-Tec and Poseidon Energy to develop additional tech for them, which could certainly explain why so many Vault-Tec experiments revolved around the development of weaponry or subversion tech. Under ideal circumstances, it all would have ended up being tech that could have helped the Enclave secure it's control over post-apocalyptic America.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Woolfe » June 19th, 2017, 10:59 pm

Drool wrote:
June 19th, 2017, 9:41 pm
Woolfe wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 11:36 pm
I guess it could be theorised that at first they never expected to actually get into a Nuclear war, so the vaults became a sop to the public. Then they got perverted by the enclave.
Nope. Not buying it. First, if they never expected nuclear war, then having the vaults be twisted experiments makes even less sense. Why spend all that time and money (including hiring people for nefarious tasks, or designing mainframes) if it was just a bomb shelter scam. Now, if none of the doors worked because they saved money by making them metal-clad plastic, it would make sense, but the Evil Experiments increases their costs. That's not how a sop to the public works: you pretend to do things, not actually do extra (secret) things.

Furthermore, wasn't the Enclave the post-war remnants of the US government? If the Enclave didn't exist until after the war, they could hardly corrupt the vault project.

The more you dig, the less sense it makes. Sure, things like Vault 11 have some of the best writing in the game, but it certainly doesn't make any damn sense. It's fridge logic at its finest.
Unless the US Government was the group that was doing it. I mean they were clearly a different government to what you have. They Invaded Canada for one. Perhaps the politician goes "We'll build shelters, that will be popular, everyone will feel safe", YAY, everyone is happy, guy gets voted in again, no longer cares about project. The group that would eventually become the Enclave starts fucking with it.

Government can be big and many armed, often without knowing what one arm is doing, and the cost of each of these experiments may have been fuck all(relatively speaking) individually, only being significant if you add them all together.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 19th, 2017, 11:00 pm

Drool wrote:
June 19th, 2017, 9:41 pm
Nope. Not buying it. First, if they never expected nuclear war, then having the vaults be twisted experiments makes even less sense. Why spend all that time and money (including hiring people for nefarious tasks, or designing mainframes) if it was just a bomb shelter scam.
Well that part is easy. Vault-Tec was playing all sides of the field. They made the vaults, they made the bombs; they made the consumables—the food, the jumpsuits, the med-kits... Vault-Tec was the ultimate profiteering endeavor; who stood to gain by whatever outcome came to pass.
**It was also a central theme that the government was lying to the populace.
Furthermore, wasn't the Enclave the post-war remnants of the US government? If the Enclave didn't exist until after the war, they could hardly corrupt the vault project.
I believe they are the descendants of the Secret Service/ turned cult.
The more you dig, the less sense it makes.
The Fallout world setting is (quite literally) the future utopia they naively expected—bombed to hell. The physical laws of their reality were bent to this; it's why green laboratory goo makes supermutants, and why Atomic bomb gases (?) could turn a town into deformed monsters (ghouls). It's why Laser guns can zap people into electrified dust; and plasma guns melt them into pools of charred protein goo.

The original setting does not hold up to close scrutiny, because it is not a future with a 1950's pop-culture obsession; it's a future where their 1950's pop-cultural assumptions came to pass; (and dictated the reality).

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 20th, 2017, 8:05 pm

I feel like my point keeps being missed, or I'm not explaining it well enough.

I understand a company making Vaults and being corrupt to maybe do a half-assed job. Further, I understand a company building both the bombs and the vaults and the medical supplies and the jumpsuits, etc.

I also understand the concept of a corrupt organization doing inhumane experiments on unwilling or unknowing subjects.

The problem I'm having is the intersection of the two, especially since the Vaults were for apocalyptic nuclear war. You're running experiments, fine. But who's going to get the results? Who's going to use them? How are they going to use them? Even if the Enclave hadn't been blown to pieces in FO2, what value would the results have?

Furthermore, the vast majority of those experiments were built around X in an enclosed, confined space. So, the Enclave would know, what? Breeding super-zombie plants in a confined space with normal people is a bad idea? Gee. Who would have guessed? Good information to have for all those people living in confined spaces. Oh wait, the only people doing that are already in Vault experiments. So what's the point?

The only possible application I can think of is for submariners. But none of the Vault experiments are things you would ever do. They're pointlessly cruel and evil or just pointless:

"All jumpsuit extruders fail after 6 months. Most of the inhabitants were Mormons. The city of New Canaan was founded by the vault dwellers after they left the vault."

Boy. Just imagine the useful scientific information that could have been used by the Enclave with that one.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault#Lis ... own_vaults
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by SagaDC » June 20th, 2017, 9:50 pm

Drool wrote:
June 20th, 2017, 8:05 pm
Furthermore, the vast majority of those experiments were built around X in an enclosed, confined space. So, the Enclave would know, what? Breeding super-zombie plants in a confined space with normal people is a bad idea? Gee. Who would have guessed? Good information to have for all those people living in confined spaces. Oh wait, the only people doing that are already in Vault experiments. So what's the point?

The only possible application I can think of is for submariners. But none of the Vault experiments are things you would ever do. They're pointlessly cruel and evil or just pointless:
This seems like an excessive over-simplification. Some experiments might have been ultimately pointless, but just as many had an obvious potential use outside of the vaults. Vaults designed to generate super-soldiers (Vault 75, Vault 87), mind-control technology (Vault 92), or universal cures (Vault 81) all have obvious potential uses to an organization that intends to take over the world.

The mutant plant experiment, which you singled out, wasn't intended to create killer plants. It was intended to advance agricultural technologies, such as creating plants that could grow without sunlight. The killer plants were just an unintended consequence of one of their experiments.

There's obviously also just some general goofiness in there, since some writers are more "tongue-in-cheek" than others. Vault 77 (Crate Full of Puppets) is obviously just intended to be silly.
Drool wrote:
June 20th, 2017, 8:05 pm
"All jumpsuit extruders fail after 6 months. Most of the inhabitants were Mormons. The city of New Canaan was founded by the vault dwellers after they left the vault."
Well, to be fair that's one of the Vaults that isn't canon, since it was in Van Buren. But it's also in keeping with the original "social experiment" aspect. If we buy into the idea that the Enclave was behind the Vault project, and that their plan was to take over and repopulate the Earth after the apocalypse, then social experiments would have some theoretical value.

Of course, it does seem evident that several of the experiments were ruined by any number of unintended factors. Ineptitude on the part of Vault-Tec contractors, unanticipated actions on part of the Vault Dwellers, unanticipated damage or complications caused by the war, or even just the Enclave being unprepared to actually handle it all once everything was in motion (which is rather plausible, given the inbred nature of their leadership).

But since we're looking at material from Van Buren, this information is apparently from the leaked design documents:

"The Enclave, responsible for the experiment (officially known as the "Societal Preservation Program"), considered themselves prime candidates for recolonizing the world after a nuclear holocaust and to this end commissioned the construction of their own shelters, isolated from the vault network. The purpose of the vault experiments was to help prepare the Enclave for either re-colonizing Earth or colonizing another planet if Earth turned out to be uninhabitable."

So that also may address the issue of "enclosed spaces". If they were considering the possibility of needing to colonize another planet, that would have involved dealing with populations pretty much permanently confined to enclosed spaces.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Woolfe » June 21st, 2017, 5:17 pm

SagaDC wrote:
June 20th, 2017, 9:50 pm

There's obviously also just some general goofiness in there, since some writers are more "tongue-in-cheek" than others. Vault 77 (Crate Full of Puppets) is obviously just intended to be silly.
I don't think that was Canon :lol:

I think the obvious thing is that the pre-enclave were somehow coordinating the nuclear war(or at least fully expecting it to occur), and reliably believed that they would come through it relatively unscathed, allowing them to monitor from afar what occurred.

Perhaps some unforeseen circumstance reduced their monitoring capabilities. If they really were the crazed lunatics that a lot of the fluff seems to suggest, I could totally see them justifying some of these tests. Some could be Sops to internal factions who are less scientific in their thought processes. Others could be very deep science. Others could be, "well shit, we've got hundreds of these vaults, what happens if we do this". Maybe the guy ultimately responsible for the "vault experiments" was a freaking whackjob on a power trip?

It's obvious a lot of this is just fluff that has been thrown together and as such has logical inconsistencies, but even the most illogical shit can sometimes be explained away with historic evidence of some whackjob in the past doing similar things. Fact is often stranger than fiction.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Drool » June 21st, 2017, 11:00 pm

SagaDC wrote:
June 20th, 2017, 9:50 pm
But since we're looking at material from Van Buren, this information is apparently from the leaked design documents:

"The Enclave, responsible for the experiment (officially known as the "Societal Preservation Program"), considered themselves prime candidates for recolonizing the world after a nuclear holocaust and to this end commissioned the construction of their own shelters, isolated from the vault network. The purpose of the vault experiments was to help prepare the Enclave for either re-colonizing Earth or colonizing another planet if Earth turned out to be uninhabitable."

So that also may address the issue of "enclosed spaces". If they were considering the possibility of needing to colonize another planet, that would have involved dealing with populations pretty much permanently confined to enclosed spaces.
Okay, that almost makes sense. Perhaps if I had some more bourbon. It still seems kinda weak to me and feels like they realized their jokey Vault Experiment direction was in desperate need of rationalization because it was pretty damn stupid.

Gizmo might hate on FO3, but I still think the wheels came off with 2.
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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 22nd, 2017, 12:03 am

Drool wrote:
June 21st, 2017, 11:00 pm
Gizmo might hate on FO3, but I still think the wheels came off with 2.
Fallout has gotten worse with every follow-up title. It's like a bad copy-of-a-copy effect; with each new game serving as a degenerated basis for the next, and each with their own new mutations. There were several Fallout 2 devs that really did not understand the world setting; there were several FO3 devs that had never played the games; a few, I believe, had never heard of the games.

Also (from what I've read) Fallout 2 was done in isolated segments that they later pieced together in the end.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by SagaDC » June 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am

Drool wrote:
June 21st, 2017, 11:00 pm
It still seems kinda weak to me and feels like they realized their jokey Vault Experiment direction was in desperate need of rationalization because it was pretty damn stupid.
Like I said, I always felt that the Vault Experiment and the Enclave were essentially introduced to justify eachother's existence. For better or worse, it's part of the mainstream continuity now.

Though, considering what some of the more recent games have introduced into the continuity, the Enclave and the Vault Experiments probably don't seem so bad in comparison.
Gizmo wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 12:03 am
there were several FO3 devs that had never played the games; a few, I believe, had never heard of the games.
From what I've heard, the lead writer never actually played the previous games, but made heavy use of the Fallout Wiki while writing the Bethesda-made sequels.
Gizmo wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 12:03 am
Also (from what I've read) Fallout 2 was done in isolated segments that they later pieced together in the end.
Honestly, that just seems to be the Black Isles / InXile SOP. I'm pretty sure that's how they handled Wasteland 3. Possibly Torment, too.

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Re: Vault-Tec

Post by Gizmo » June 22nd, 2017, 8:40 am

SagaDC wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am
Honestly, that just seems to be the Black Isles / InXile SOP. I'm pretty sure that's how they handled Wasteland 3. Possibly Torment, too.
My impression was that they were lucky it all fit together.

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