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Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: December 29th, 2015, 5:32 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
Myrth wrote:When the amount of strategic resources is close to 100, you NEED largest possible map, or you might find yourself on planet that doesn't come with Fine Clay. Or Iron Ore. Or - worst of them all - Oil.
So you have to adapt your strategy. That's why we call it strategy game.
Myrth wrote: Anyway, with so many civs on truly large map, it's MUCH more challenging to not only build your own empire, but then maintain it and not being swallowed.
Eh, I tried that mode a few times, challenging is not the world I'd use. Dealing with obnoxious amount of micromanagent and excessive scale is not a challenge, its not even gaming, its work. The game has difficulty setings for a reason, if I want a challenge, I put the slider up and still finish the playthrough not in few weeks, but within couple of hours. Or sometimes sooner. The AI has obscene bonuses to production at higher levels and some games are impossible to win, depending a lot on what kind of resources you find for the first city and what kind of neighbours you have.
Myrth wrote: Vanilla Indians come with the most powerful unit - their special worker. It makes a huge impact and remains active for the entire game, as it never goes obsolete. Combine with Ghandi and you are swimming in Great People and never suffer anarchy. This allows to sky-rocket the moment you unlock proper civics
Indian Fast Worker, the most powerful unit? What in the actual fuck. It just walks faster. It doesn't make a huge impact beyond your first city, and becomes completely obsolete in the late game.I mean, maybe on a bigger maps its different, but on standard size Indians are 3rd-tier Civilization.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: December 30th, 2015, 1:34 am
by Myrth
Let's think... an unit that never gets obsolete and is active from the start of the game? A worker that can move AND build? Normal worker needs extra turn to actually start doing things. In a game with only 500 turns, that's a difference between dominating the game and being a 3rd-tier civ. Especially when combind with Ghandi's bonuses. In case of C2C that wouldn't matter, since first 500 turns won't even push you pass the neolitic hunter-gatherers, but in case of vanilla game?
Dunno, it's like you never won a game, because you've micro-manager all your cities/bases so base A, B and N were loosing -32 cash thanks to corruption/inefficiency, but in the same time, the new combination of worker placement gave you net profit of 36 cash, so you had 2 techs in single turn 25 turns later and thanks to that you've gained new production building, which in turn 49 turns later gave you 15 new units instead of 12, so you've prevailed the assault and launched a counter-invasion.

That's what I call strategy. A meticulous micro-management that grants you small fraction of profit here and there, but when they sum up, suddenly the sum gets bigger than the parts of it. Much, much bigger. And most people just ignore them as "insignificant", since they don't think about synergy. Every idiot can just find some power strategy that requires no brain and lacks flexibility beyond basic outline.
On the other hand, I'm probably one of few people who think HoI3 is oversimplified beyond reason, and not a micromanagement hell.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: December 30th, 2015, 2:21 am
by kilobug
Myrth wrote:won't even push you pass the neolitic hunter-gatherers
Sorry, nitpicking pedantic mode on ;) Neolithic people were farmers, not hunter-gatherers. The hunter-gatherers were the paleolithic people ;)

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: December 30th, 2015, 4:53 am
by Myrth
And I've got a reply for that. You are right. And the game is right. And my statement is right. There is a small gap where we can already talk about semi-sedimentry form of living and already neolit, but still not farming in any form. And the game, being this level of pedantic, captures this moment. for about 60-70 turns (assuming player is at least semi-competent with Civ games, that is), which translates to about 1200-1400 years, thus the perfect gap between semi-sedimentry living and neolitic tool-making, but still without any agriculture, even in garden veriety that was predominant for early stages of neolitic farming around ease-to-dug alluvial soils characteristic to old river valleys and dried oxbow lakes. After all, if you are not farming, then by default you are hunter-gatherer.

Believe me, I'm a real fun at parties after 10 years of studying few different and passionate fields like History and Hydrology. For real :D

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 1st, 2016, 10:59 pm
by JoniOdin
So I had a PM conversation with macksting about our lists, and I thought I might share my reasons for some of those games I mentioned with y'all.

Vagrant Story is a pure atmosphere heaven!
It felt like I was right in medieval France, with all it's wonderful buildings, alleys etc. The sound design was awesome, and additionaly the story made the overall feel super mysterious.
So for me as a teenager interested in history as well as the supernatural it felt just like my dreamland: they captured the whole middle ages + mysterious magic thing perfectly, which makes it the most atmospheric game I've ever played.
Also I'm usually not too fond of high difficulty, but in this case it was a real challenge to compete against the bosses: it was really hard, and I needed many tries to succeed, but it was always possible and therefore not frustrating. You just had to concentrate and focus, then it would work.

Gothic is also an atmospheric giant.
Never in my life have I played a game where the disctinction between REALLY feeling safe and REALLY being scared (with an everlasting eerie melancholy being present all the time) was as imminent than this.
Walking through the wilderness in this gray, brutal world, feeling completely lonely, before seeing the Old Camp at the end of the road; - that's a journey from fear to hope. As soon as I've met the guards and entered the gates my whole body relaxed, and I could finally breathe again.
In this kind of world exploring made finally real sense beyond just finding new gear or shit. Rather it is about finding safe spots in a hostile environment, and testing the limits of your own courage.
Also the setting is extremely interesting, taking place inside the magic wall where only prisoners live and split up to build the three very distinct camps, led by Fire-, Water- and Swamp-mages respectively.
The "theology" of the three Gods works absolutely perfect too, as it is very simple but very deep.
The german voice acting was great too, but I have no idea how the english one is.

Invisible War was not as complex, long, original and gritty as the first Deus Ex (which undisputably is a masterpiece), but it had one huge bonus in my book: some of the choices youi make have immediate impact! So I've been faced with a choice, pick one option, and just a couple of minutes after that I can see or hear how my choice affected the world.
I can't remember for sure if IW really made it that much better than the first Deus Ex, but it definitely felt like an extraordinary experience in this regard.
Also I liked the characters a lot (especially the main antagonist), even though understandably many consider them to be cliché.

The Witcher II also had the choice&consequence thing going for them, much more than The Witcher I or III (which I both like, but not nearly as much as the 2nd part).
Hell, they even close off an entire area depending on your choice at a certain point.
The story was superb with all it's politics and intrigue, and Geralt and the other characters were made very believeable, which may have had to do with brilliant directing too.

A great combination of atmosphere, setting and choice&consequences is presented by Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines.
The Goth-Punk vibe fits the Vampire thing absofuckinglutely perfect, LA at night seems to be a good fit for that, and it really makes a difference which clan you chose, whom you help etc.etc.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 2nd, 2016, 10:00 am
by paultakeda
macksting wrote:For the record, I think it's fine to count a series as one game for this kind of thing. It's not a very formal system. But that's just me.
Depends on the series. For instance, I would list Uncharted and Mass Effect as two, but would distinctly only list Dragon's Age: Origins and absolutely not include the rest.

All-inclusive lists are almost always impossible for me. More often than not I end up listing a game for its significance in my life versus the objective merits of the game, and so what do I do with that fact that I played Space Invaders every day after school at the ice cream parlor? I don't particularly like playing it now nor was I ever any good at it, but it carries the weight of memory.

So I'm going to self-restrict my list to boundaries I arbitrarily decide given the context of this forum: CRPGs only. So in no particular order:
1. Wasteland
2. Sentinel Worlds I: Future Magic
3. Tales of the Unknown I: The Bard's Tale
4. AD&D: Pool of Radiance
5. Questron
6. BattleTech: The Crescent Hawk's Inception
7. Sword of the Samurai (this one's cross-genre but you are definitely RP-ing a character with stats who also ages and dies so better get married but not too early or your kid'll be old when you become him so to me it counts as an RPG... as well as an RTS as well as a top-down maze/action as well as a swordfight sim as well as a land management game.... whew; it is almost impossible to avoid run-on sentences when I describe this game).

Heh. I guess that was too restrictive. :lol:

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 2nd, 2016, 10:40 am
by IHaveHugeNick
Myrth wrote:Let's think... an unit that never gets obsolete and is active from the start of the game? A worker that can move AND build? Normal worker needs extra turn to actually start doing things. In a game with only 500 turns, that's a difference between dominating the game and being a 3rd-tier civ. Especially when combind with Ghandi's bonuses. In case of C2C that wouldn't matter, since first 500 turns won't even push you pass the neolitic hunter-gatherers, but in case of vanilla game?
Dunno, it's like you never won a game, because you've micro-manager all your cities/bases so base A, B and N were loosing -32 cash thanks to corruption/inefficiency, but in the same time, the new combination of worker placement gave you net profit of 36 cash, so you had 2 techs in single turn 25 turns later and thanks to that you've gained new production building, which in turn 49 turns later gave you 15 new units instead of 12, so you've prevailed the assault and launched a counter-invasion.
That's all great, but standard worker has 2 moves, so he can absolutely move and build in the same turn. That's why Indian Worker only has advantage depending on a placement of terrain plot where you are trying to build. Had it been 1/2 turns, it'd be entirely different story. But with 2/3, its not as much of a difference as you're trying to paint.
Myrth wrote: That's what I call strategy. A meticulous micro-management that grants you small fraction of profit here and there, but when they sum up, suddenly the sum gets bigger than the parts of it. Much, much bigger. And most people just ignore them as "insignificant", since they don't think about synergy. Every idiot can just find some power strategy that requires no brain and lacks flexibility beyond basic outline.
Ah come on now. Spamming city improvements and great people is just as much of a power strategy as anything else. You adapt your game plan according to the tools you were given, that's what strategy is all about.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 2nd, 2016, 11:22 am
by macksting
Man, y'all gotta try Sword Of The Stars. Cuts out a lot of BS without actually dumbing anything down.

Not that I don't enjoy a little BS now and then. That's part of what makes me sad about Outpost (Win3.1). It's still pretty darn unique, but painfully borked.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 2nd, 2016, 4:21 pm
by Myrth
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Ah come on now. Spamming city improvements and great people is just as much of a power strategy as anything else. You adapt your game plan according to the tools you were given, that's what strategy is all about.
Please explain me something, because I'm apparently missing it - and this is sincere request. How +3 over 500 turns and achieved by loosing -2 in other field and only possible because randomly generated river/mountain/resource is "power strategy". Because we either talk about adopting (which is what I do) or power strategy (which I don't get in the given context). Alternatively you've assumed that when I speficically listed the great people spam as game-breaker then it's the only thing I do.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 12:30 am
by IHaveHugeNick
Myrth wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Ah come on now. Spamming city improvements and great people is just as much of a power strategy as anything else. You adapt your game plan according to the tools you were given, that's what strategy is all about.
Please explain me something, because I'm apparently missing it - and this is sincere request. How +3 over 500 turns and achieved by loosing -2 in other field and only possible because randomly generated river/mountain/resource is "power strategy"
Its a game of long-term plans. Anything that gives you big enough edge is a power strategy.
Myrth wrote: . Because we either talk about adopting (which is what I do) or power strategy (which I don't get in the given context). Alternatively you've assumed that when I speficically listed the great people spam as game-breaker then it's the only thing I do.
Of course that's not the only thing you do, but that's what you focus on, because that's the correct game plan with Indians. Just as cottage spam is the correct plan with Hannibal or Jaguar spam is the correct plan with Montezuma.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 2:57 am
by Ronin73
I'll give this a go in no particular order. This list is based on my enjoyment of my gaming past/nostalgia.

1. Wasteland - Impossible for me not to have this on my list. So many hours played, so many fond memories.

2. System Shock - I know the sequel is far more popular, but this is the one I keep going back to. Shodan was at her best in this one IMO and the cyberspace elements in this are one of my favorite experiences.

3. Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri - One of the most overlooked and underrated games IMO. I had an absolute blast with this game.

4. Neuromancer - Played this game before I'd ever even heard of the book. Enjoyed it so much that it made me read the book.

5. Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines - A flawed classic in my eyes. It's one of the few games where I could overlook all the bugs and complete the game several times over. The unofficial patches made it even better. Completed the game with every race, but the Malkavian playthrough was my favorite.

6. Sid Meier's Pirates! - Spent many hours on this back in my C-64 days. The remake was a lot of fun, but it took out a lot of the rough elements like malaria and the tougher 1560 - The Silver Empire historical time period which was really rewarding if you worked at it.

7. Ultima V - My first Ultima experience and the most enjoyable for me. Still remember those late nights traveling through the 1st person dungeons which I thought were great.

8. Pool of Radiance - IMO It's the least polished in the gold box series in terms of mechanics, but it's still the first game I go back to when I'm in the mood for some nostalgia. The story and the locations are still the best in the series for me.

9. Bard's Tale III - Also the first one I played in the series and ended up enjoying the most.

10. Project Stealth Fighter - One of my earliest gaming experiences. Played this for months on 2 double sided cassettes for the C64. Still remember the keyboard overlay and the 20 minutes loading times for each mission.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 8:31 am
by paultakeda
Neuromancer! How could I forget that one as an RPG? Sheesh. Okay. I'm up to 9.

And 10. Circuit's Edge.

Done.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 12:01 pm
by Drool
Ronin73 wrote:8. Pool of Radiance - IMO It's the least polished in the gold box series in terms of mechanics, but it's still the first game I go back to when I'm in the mood for some nostalgia. The story and the locations are still the best in the series for me.
Having recently replayed it, it really boils down to Fix. The rest is manageable, but the Fix command was the true innovation of the sequels.
10. Project Stealth Fighter - One of my earliest gaming experiences. Played this for months on 2 double sided cassettes for the C64. Still remember the keyboard overlay and the 20 minutes loading times for each mission.
MicroProse put out so many good games like that.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 1:51 pm
by Ronin73
Drool wrote:
Ronin73 wrote:8. Pool of Radiance - IMO It's the least polished in the gold box series in terms of mechanics, but it's still the first game I go back to when I'm in the mood for some nostalgia. The story and the locations are still the best in the series for me.
Having recently replayed it, it really boils down to Fix. The rest is manageable, but the Fix command was the true innovation of the sequels.
I haven't (as yet) tried it but might I suggest giving this a go?

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/

It supposedly adds the fix option to Pool of Radiance.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 3:50 pm
by Drool
I recorded something like 20 videos of Pool. I had to have something to talk about! :lol:

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 4:02 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
Yeah, Pirates! and it's 2004 remake were amazing and devilishly addictive. I've never understood why new versions haven't popped up, especially with piraty themes being a hip thing for a few years. Supposedly Microsoft are working on some pirate MMORPG, which I intend to check out.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 4:53 pm
by tonurics
There's no way I could come up with a list of my top 10 video games. :lol: You guys have already listed a number of great games.

Here's some random ones I don't think anyone has mentioned yet:
  • Spy Hunter
  • Elevator Action
  • A Mind Forever Voyaging
  • Last Blade 2, The
  • Flashback
  • Out of this World
  • A Boy and His Blob
  • Puzzle Bubble
  • Police Trainer
  • 194X
  • Metal Slug
  • Galactic Civilization 2
  • Virtua Racing
  • Roller Coaster Tycoon
But I might be able to do a top 10 list of just pinball tables:
  1. Addams Family, The
  2. Twilight Zone, The
  3. Bride of Pinbot
  4. Star Trek (old and new)
  5. Fun House
  6. ...
Nope! :D
vv221 wrote: Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War - Dark Crusade
Heresy grows from idleness! We'll have to try to arrange a game sometime.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 5:17 pm
by IHaveHugeNick
Flashback! How could I forget.

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 4th, 2016, 10:51 pm
by macksting
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Yeah, Pirates! and it's 2004 remake were amazing and devilishly addictive. I've never understood why new versions haven't popped up, especially with piraty themes being a hip thing for a few years.
I feel like one could make a huge thread all about "why isn't anybody doing this?" I've a few old favorites that I'd love to see rebuilt or replaced on modern systems, or even just done competently for the first time. (I'm looking at you, Outpost.)

Re: Your Top 10 Games

Posted: January 5th, 2016, 7:33 am
by vv221
tonurics wrote:
vv221 wrote: Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War - Dark Crusade
Heresy grows from idleness! We'll have to try to arrange a game sometime.
I grow weary of having my ass kicked by an AI, losing against a player would be refreshing :mrgreen:

Well, I’m not *that* bad, but the highest level AI is still a big threat to me.