A Weapon Re-balance Mod (Patch 4 OK!)

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Halfgeek
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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 25th, 2014, 11:05 pm

AlphaMagnum wrote:Question -- did modifying the weapons in this way affect the enemy's weapons?

Like...do they use your new and improved shotguns, or do they do the same damage regardless of whether or not your mod is installed?
Enemy stats are separate to player items.

I did not want to mess with enemies because it could make some encounters impossible due to the numbers of enemies involved. :)

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Raestloz » October 26th, 2014, 12:00 am

To be fair, I don't think enemies actually use Burst or Headshot
My leadership Ranger is my medic

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 26th, 2014, 3:53 am

Raestloz wrote:To be fair, I don't think enemies actually use Burst or Headshot
They do use burst. They do not headshot (this was added prior to release last minute for PC).

I've been bursted by Spaz-12, SMG and AR enemies often.

People think EW wrecking armor Rangers is imba, but when you have a few Spaz-12 dudes and a AR guy bursting your group, its worse than EW. Only thing worse is an RPG salvo in middle of your team. :lol:

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by NovaRain » October 26th, 2014, 6:06 am

Do you plan on tweaking reload/unjam AP in later updates?
Currently many weapons have reload AP equal to or 1 point more than their default attack AP, and unjam also equal to or 1 point more than reload. But some have much lower AP costs, e.g. SVD & PSG-1 only take 3 AP for reload.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Momozo » October 26th, 2014, 10:33 am

Halfgeek wrote:
AlphaMagnum wrote:Question -- did modifying the weapons in this way affect the enemy's weapons?

Like...do they use your new and improved shotguns, or do they do the same damage regardless of whether or not your mod is installed?
Enemy stats are separate to player items.

I did not want to mess with enemies because it could make some encounters impossible due to the numbers of enemies involved. :)
Now it makes things unbalanced, because their Burst Chance Hit will remain high while ours becomes really weak.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 26th, 2014, 5:24 pm

Momozo wrote:
Halfgeek wrote:
AlphaMagnum wrote:Question -- did modifying the weapons in this way affect the enemy's weapons?

Like...do they use your new and improved shotguns, or do they do the same damage regardless of whether or not your mod is installed?
Enemy stats are separate to player items.

I did not want to mess with enemies because it could make some encounters impossible due to the numbers of enemies involved. :)
Now it makes things unbalanced, because their Burst Chance Hit will remain high while ours becomes really weak.
Enemies don't get crazy weapon mods or trinkets or leadership bonuses.

Your Ranger gets cover, enemies will miss a lot. Enemies get cover, your ranger with mods, trinkets etc will still burst 100% at their torso.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Staehrminator » October 27th, 2014, 6:02 am

If you want I could see about making Energy Weapons only deal their crazy damage to a certain type of armor.
For instance, any metallic or robotic armor should be fried, but combat and leather armor shouldn't be affected that much. Sound like a plan?

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Momozo » October 27th, 2014, 11:03 am

Halfgeek wrote:

Enemies don't get crazy weapon mods or trinkets or leadership bonuses.

Your Ranger gets cover, enemies will miss a lot. Enemies get cover, your ranger with mods, trinkets etc will still burst 100% at their torso.[/quote]

I see, and you have a point there.

I was reviewing your weapon stats and I still see AR as the best weapon by far, even with your changes.

Other weapons damage/AP doesnt compare with AR. The only one that can compete are Heavy, but even then there is a requirement of strenght and a lot of bullets. The AP cost just doesnt justify choosing other options.

The range can be a decisive factor? maybe... but only for those who are caught off-guard. Players like me, who likes to always prepere for a fight, almost never let enemies get too close, even if we have to run from them while shooting.

Remember: Skill Points are EXPENSIVE! Secondary weapons are kind of a waste of points, specially if you consider that not everyone is going to put +8 INT. So, for me to choose Shotgun or handgun instead of AR, it must really pay the price.

If you really want to balance things and make other weapons interesting, changing the AP cost is essencial. I still think small weapons AP are too high.

Just an opinion. :mrgreen:

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 27th, 2014, 8:50 pm

Momozo wrote: I was reviewing your weapon stats and I still see AR as the best weapon by far, even with your changes.

Other weapons damage/AP doesnt compare with AR. The only one that can compete are Heavy, but even then there is a requirement of strenght and a lot of bullets. The AP cost just doesnt justify choosing other options.
It's not so much DMG / AP that you should worry about, but rather DMG per Turn.

Rangers typically have 8-11 AP with higher AP characters having less Combat Initiative so they get less turns. 9 or 10 AP seems to be the most common.

So its about how much damage you can inflict per turn, not per AP. :)

AR burst + headshot = 9 AP. You can only do it once per turn. It's no longer 100% accurate, but around 80% accurate. So its been nerfed slightly, for the G41. Other AR get very nice buffs, guns like the G3, AUG, FN Fal were useless with their very low damage rounds.

MGs cost 7/8 AP, so you can only fire once per turn. Their accuracy has been nerfed slightly so its NOT a good idea to go for headshot burst on MGs.

SMGs in close range will do more damage than AR per turn, but only against soft-armor targets. They do OK damage to high armor targets but definitely less than AR.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 27th, 2014, 8:52 pm

Staehrminator wrote:If you want I could see about making Energy Weapons only deal their crazy damage to a certain type of armor.
For instance, any metallic or robotic armor should be fried, but combat and leather armor shouldn't be affected that much. Sound like a plan?
A problem with that, is enemies have 5-7 armor in CA, irrespective whether they are beasts or humanoids.

For anti-armor to work, there needs to be a more complex armor system, like Fallout 1/2 with DT/DR etc. Then you need to separate damage types into Kinetic, Energy, Heat.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Momozo » October 28th, 2014, 6:38 am

Halfgeek wrote:
Momozo wrote: I was reviewing your weapon stats and I still see AR as the best weapon by far, even with your changes.

Other weapons damage/AP doesnt compare with AR. The only one that can compete are Heavy, but even then there is a requirement of strenght and a lot of bullets. The AP cost just doesnt justify choosing other options.
It's not so much DMG / AP that you should worry about, but rather DMG per Turn.

Rangers typically have 8-11 AP with higher AP characters having less Combat Initiative so they get less turns. 9 or 10 AP seems to be the most common.

So its about how much damage you can inflict per turn, not per AP. :)

AR burst + headshot = 9 AP. You can only do it once per turn. It's no longer 100% accurate, but around 80% accurate. So its been nerfed slightly, for the G41. Other AR get very nice buffs, guns like the G3, AUG, FN Fal were useless with their very low damage rounds.

MGs cost 7/8 AP, so you can only fire once per turn. Their accuracy has been nerfed slightly so its NOT a good idea to go for headshot burst on MGs.

SMGs in close range will do more damage than AR per turn, but only against soft-armor targets. They do OK damage to high armor targets but definitely less than AR.
I find it really difficult to achieve +9 AP in my chars.

But speaking about the weapons only, AR are still the best. They have range, damage, high penetration, accuracy and low AP cost. So, what would make it worth to spend AP to move closer to the enemies (and put yourself at more risk) and shoot with a close range weapon? If the AP per shot is almost the same, its better to shoot at distance. Or even better: since you dont need to move, spend all the spared AP in burst shots. It doesnt need to be headshots. I never use them, anyway. In the meanwhile, enemies will spend their AP getting closer. We just wait and ambush. Way less medkits needed.

I think balance in this game is not only making the acc and dmg more equal, but making it worth to expose your chars to more risk so it can do more damage. I deal a lot with risk:reward (R:R) ratio in my work, and I think the best R:R, even with your changes, are still with the AR weapons, by far.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 28th, 2014, 8:13 am

Yes I agree that AR is still the best due to the good rewards with no risk. It remains the all-rounder choice.

But from my own playing, MGs are very satisfying now. Greater damage with a risk of jams.

I'm also enjoying Shotguns & SMGs a lot more now.

My latest play through have no AR Rangers. :lol:

Pistols are still weak since SMGs take that role of punishing low-armor targets better.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Novamar » October 28th, 2014, 8:36 am

As said before, this is a wonderful mod.
I'm using all types of weapons now.
Would like to see 1% jam chance on mg's, they still jam too much.
10% jam chance when 5 bullets fired is too much.

That beeing said, thanks for your work!

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Andross » October 29th, 2014, 1:51 pm

So, does this mod makes all the weapons actually useful?

If so, how does that affect the game's balance?

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 29th, 2014, 5:09 pm

Andross wrote:So, does this mod makes all the weapons actually useful?

If so, how does that affect the game's balance?
Yes.

If you play with a lot of AR Rangers, you will find it slightly harder if you end up using the G41.

But if you play with all types of weapons, you will find it easier.

So it depends on your team.

I only play on Ranger & SJ difficulty, its just more fun when my SJ team has Pistols, SMGs, MGs, EW (without GRB!) and they are just as competitive without needing to go heavy AR.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by jassir » October 30th, 2014, 7:21 am

Good job with the AR changes, liking them so far. Not seeing any changes to blunt weapons however, they seem awfully underpowered compared to bladed right now. Any plans on a passing them over as well?

I agree on lower AP costs for heavier melee weapons, thats why i downloaded the mod (that and the M16 adjustment, which is good). Combat knife seems a bit over the top right now still sitting at 4 ArPen but 80% higher base damage. A 9 STR character yields crits in the 80s range quite often, seeing how crit % from skills is unchanged, and armor low throughout Arizona; I was able to pull off 200+ dmg a round at level 6 with a grip tape...
Dunno if that was intended, but it seems off that early in the game.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by realblacktea » October 30th, 2014, 2:27 pm

f you want I could see about making Energy Weapons only deal their crazy damage to a certain type of armor.
For instance, any metallic or robotic armor should be fried, but combat and leather armor shouldn't be affected that much. Sound like a plan?
Is it actually possible to mod in an Armor higher than 10? If it is, i think it would be the better choice to do. This way, higher Armor would be more usefull, without changing the effect of EW.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » October 30th, 2014, 9:42 pm

jassir wrote:Good job with the AR changes, liking them so far. Not seeing any changes to blunt weapons however, they seem awfully underpowered compared to bladed right now. Any plans on a passing them over as well?

I agree on lower AP costs for heavier melee weapons, thats why i downloaded the mod (that and the M16 adjustment, which is good). Combat knife seems a bit over the top right now still sitting at 4 ArPen but 80% higher base damage. A 9 STR character yields crits in the 80s range quite often, seeing how crit % from skills is unchanged, and armor low throughout Arizona; I was able to pull off 200+ dmg a round at level 6 with a grip tape...
Dunno if that was intended, but it seems off that early in the game.
Sure, I haven't used blunt weapons at all for my characters, what are the changes you suggest to make them balanced?

I'm OK with the combat knife being good, since its in the same tier as the M16 or Bar. Melee SHOULD be more dangerous, when it melee range. It tapers off quickly in CA.

When you play on Ranger/SJ, melee is risky, being in the open and a target of fire. Definitely needs Ooomph! as a reward for the high risk.

Anyhow, if you have some suggestions for blunt, I'd be happy to include them in an updated version.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Momozo » October 31st, 2014, 7:08 am

Halfgeek wrote:
jassir wrote:Good job with the AR changes, liking them so far. Not seeing any changes to blunt weapons however, they seem awfully underpowered compared to bladed right now. Any plans on a passing them over as well?

I agree on lower AP costs for heavier melee weapons, thats why i downloaded the mod (that and the M16 adjustment, which is good). Combat knife seems a bit over the top right now still sitting at 4 ArPen but 80% higher base damage. A 9 STR character yields crits in the 80s range quite often, seeing how crit % from skills is unchanged, and armor low throughout Arizona; I was able to pull off 200+ dmg a round at level 6 with a grip tape...
Dunno if that was intended, but it seems off that early in the game.
Sure, I haven't used blunt weapons at all for my characters, what are the changes you suggest to make them balanced?

I'm OK with the combat knife being good, since its in the same tier as the M16 or Bar. Melee SHOULD be more dangerous, when it melee range. It tapers off quickly in CA.

When you play on Ranger/SJ, melee is risky, being in the open and a target of fire. Definitely needs Ooomph! as a reward for the high risk.

Anyhow, if you have some suggestions for blunt, I'd be happy to include them in an updated version.
The suggestion I have is:

The higher the risk, higher the reward. In other words, the closer you need to get to be in optmal range, larger the damage or AP cost.

Lets be realist: the AI sucks. It just rushs in your direction. So, why would I spend AP to get closer? I'll just wait and ambush them all, while THEY waste their AP trying to get closer. That's why it must be absolutelly worth for you yourself to get closer.

This factor would really make short range weapons (shotguns, melee, handguns) an interesting choice.

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Re: A Weapon Re-balance Mod (All ranged weapons & blades)

Post by Halfgeek » November 1st, 2014, 4:32 am

Momozo wrote: The suggestion I have is:

The higher the risk, higher the reward. In other words, the closer you need to get to be in optmal range, larger the damage or AP cost.

Lets be realist: the AI sucks. It just rushs in your direction. So, why would I spend AP to get closer? I'll just wait and ambush them all, while THEY waste their AP trying to get closer. That's why it must be absolutelly worth for you yourself to get closer.

This factor would really make short range weapons (shotguns, melee, handguns) an interesting choice.
I've tried to balance it with that principle, the shorter your optimum range, the more powerful the weapon, this is why close range weapons like SMG and shotguns were buffed big time with my mod.

Since patch 2 with the fix to unlimited AI moves or rushing, they are a lot better now, they try to find cover and fire from range or their optimal range, without being dumb and rushing into melee range with a MG or Rifle.

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