Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Discussing the story & setting of Wasteland 2. Beware spoilers. Please avoid spoilers in thread titles.

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 12th, 2019, 1:08 am

I thought the general theme was 1991. Not quite the 80s which hadn't worn off entirely, but the grunge was starting to creep in like water into newsprint.
I always avoid the Night Terror, though I'm pleased to see it at least in the game. And I am not pleased with the fragile Vax.
WL2 as a reboot is a terrible idea. It was better to grab as much wl1 as possible and weave it into wl2, they just gave wl1 the middle finger while doing so. With wl3 coming, they have the option of a totally new territory to play the game from start to finish- in other words THAT they can blow to gravel.
The Scorpitron was a mini-boss, but it was much more photogenic than the Tronodile or the Threshing Crawler. I think that 1- the Scorp should have been used. 2- Perhaps there should have been a few more octotrons and hexborgs, instead of all those shiny humanoid robots. (oh, and the combat levels should have been saveable, smaller, and easier to find your way out of!) 3- new unique foes can work. Look at how cool the disco bot is. They had a lot of character pathing with new foes, but not a lot of foes that were as awesome as the scorpitron to fight against.
Chestnut? It's a good point about the mismanagement and embezzling done by people with the power of kings. So what would happen and where would all their stuff be put in the case of a nuclear war? There's got to be a few underground storage facilities out there, somewhere.
The Scorp's origin was as unexplained as so much in wl1, and yet it all meshes. Wl2 doesn't do much meshing.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 12th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 1:08 am
I thought the general theme was 1991. Not quite the 80s which hadn't worn off entirely, but the grunge was starting to creep in like water into newsprint.
Wasteland came out in 1988.
I always avoid the Night Terror, though I'm pleased to see it at least in the game.
You are? A manifestation of Finster's childhood dreams that was a series of impulses in his cybernetic brain existing in the physical world was a good thing?
It was better to grab as much wl1 as possible and weave it into wl2
No. That is exactly how bad sequels are made.

And I wasn't saying that WL2 should have been a reboot. I'm saying that so much was changed and retconned that it was closer to a reboot than a sequel despite being set chronologically after WL1.
The Scorpitron was a mini-boss, but it was much more photogenic than the Tronodile or the Threshing Crawler.
This would be a valid point if I had mentioned either of those enemies. I specifically mentioned the Cyborg/Hexborg and the Octotron/Fusion Octotron, both of which had both very memorable images and were memorable for the fights involving them. And they weren't unique, so it would make sense to see them again.

And, indeed, we do see Octotrons. They've somehow become extremely weak and were, somehow, less threatening than Slicerdicers, the weakest robot in Vegas, but they were there.
new unique foes can work. Look at how cool the disco bot is.
Yes. I liked the Discobot. That doesn't mean I want it in WL3. I also wouldn't want a zombified Brother Goliath, either. Just because something was good doesn't mean it must return.
Chestnut? It's a good point about the mismanagement and embezzling done by people with the power of kings.
No, it's a misunderstanding created by looking at a budget with absolutely no context and attempting to be pithy. Briefly, extremely specialized tools that are created in very small batches are expensive.
So what would happen and where would all their stuff be put in the case of a nuclear war? There's got to be a few underground storage facilities out there, somewhere.
Warehouses and military bases.
The Scorp's origin was as unexplained as so much in wl1, and yet it all meshes. Wl2 doesn't do much meshing.
Correct. It is completely unexplained. The information we have is very limited:

1) It is unique (in WL1)
2) Its written description doesn't exactly match its image
3) Said written description: "a tank with an armored warrior"
4) It is located in the middle of a crossroad in Vegas
5) Said location puts it in range of numerous ruined buildings and Faran Brygo's headquarters
6) It's very tough for its location

That's it. Clearly, you seem to assume that it is a piece of pre-war tech. Possibly parked in the middle of a large city to control traffic. Or perhaps when the missiles were launched, the military rolled that sucker out because "middle of city" was more secure than "secret military bunker".

Personally, I assume that it was built after the war by Cochise and used to secure Vegas and/or keep Faran Brygo on lockdown. Or, I suppose, it could have been built by the Newmen, but the whole Newmen/Cochise dynamic isn't particularly well explored in the game.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 16th, 2019, 9:51 pm

You are? A manifestation of Finster's childhood dreams that was a series of impulses in his cybernetic brain existing in the physical world was a good thing?
I'm pleased to see it wasn't forgotten. It was a tough fight character in wl1. Yes, I hear he makes a good party follower, but I prefer to leave him where he was. There's the suspicion that you'll wake up one day to find him eating your Three Amigos outfit... or someone's head.
No. That is exactly how bad sequels are made.
That can be, but the hands of the careless cannot paint the Sistine Chapel.
Reboots are bad, it was much better to make a part 2 instead of reboot it and deny the existence of the first one. That's why wl3 is important. It shows that the pre-sold games of the fundraising is a viable creation model. And it makes wl a series. Perhaps someday there may even be a wl4- if wl3 doesn't drive itself facefirst into the ground.
Just because something was good doesn't mean it must return.
That is the difference between a mention and major part. Acknowledge it happened then move on. If it's needed to have a major part then it gets a major part. You could claim that wl1 was a long string of "singing alligator moments" and you wouldn't be wrong. The balance of it rests on how X is used in the game's story structure and play functions. Is it useless? Is it fun or not? Is X something that's as jeered at as Aquaman, or does it make a triumphant return by being used in the story as amazing? In the end it can be up to the writing people and level programmers. Do they seem up to it?

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 18th, 2019, 8:10 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 9:51 pm
I'm pleased to see it wasn't forgotten.
But it doesn't make any sense. The Night Terror was in Finster's Mind Maze. It wasn't real. It would be like having the Lie Spider or Christy Matthews in WL2.
Reboots are bad, it was much better to make a part 2 instead of reboot it and deny the existence of the first one.
You're really not getting my point at all.

I'm not saying WL2 should have been designed as a reboot. I'm saying that it changed so much of the core systems, it might as well have been a reboot.
You could claim that wl1 was a long string of "singing alligator moments" and you wouldn't be wrong.
There's very little that doesn't tie in to the story.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 18th, 2019, 8:46 pm

Drool wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 8:10 pm
But it doesn't make any sense. The Night Terror was in Finster's Mind Maze. It wasn't real. It would be like having the Lie Spider or Christy Matthews in WL2.
Yes, true, it's like being attacked by the AI instead of the robot body it controls. I think we're just supposed to roll with it. It's a minor matter, and a nice cameo that benefits the players if they want to add it to their team.
Drool wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 8:10 pm
Reboots are bad, it was much better to make a part 2 instead of reboot it and deny the existence of the first one.
You're really not getting my point at all.
I'm not saying WL2 should have been designed as a reboot. I'm saying that it changed so much of the core systems, it might as well have been a reboot.
And in a way it is. As well as a sequel, as well as the (possible) start of a new series (if wl2 was successful.) It just is, and we're supposed to enjoy it. If they had stuck to the top down system like wl1 instead of the 3rd person shooter or what it's called in wl2 then it would have been much closer to being Wasteland, as well as being retro. We have to accept it and move on. (And in doing so, we should make sure the game creation in progress is appropriately built!) So much time and advancements have gone by that many would think there's no way wl2 could have been like wl1, but that is incorrect. Wl2 could have been more like wl1 without being it, but a reboot would have been an even worse idea then what was arrived at. And there's just not enough _game_ to support a 'reboot' and the retroactive changes it would mean. If you want to reboot something do Meantime or Fountain of Dreams.
You could claim that wl1 was a long string of "singing alligator moments" and you wouldn't be wrong.
Drool wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 8:10 pm
There's very little that doesn't tie in to the story.
Did you just forget the Night Terror? The one that ties into the story because it is there, but it shouldn't be there and sticks out if you know that it's not supposed to be there?
Or do you mean that the branching plots are a little too lean in places and that it would have been better to have some more options that let the players have some fun then get back to the plot and level grinding?

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 19th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 8:46 pm
I think we're just supposed to roll with it. It's a minor matter, and a nice cameo that benefits the players if they want to add it to their team.
No, no I don't think I will. Rolling with it is what leads to more sloppy writing and plotting. Things that make absolutely no sense should be called out. I'm yelling into the void, but I'm going to continue to do so.
It just is, and we're supposed to enjoy it.
"Here's your slop, enjoy."

No, I think it's better to have standards.
If they had stuck to the top down system like wl1 instead of the 3rd person shooter or what it's called in wl2
Tactical, isometric, turn-based RPG. A third person shooter is something like Just Cause.
So much time and advancements have gone by that many would think there's no way wl2 could have been like wl1, but that is incorrect. Wl2 could have been more like wl1 without being it, but a reboot would have been an even worse idea then what was arrived at.
So... changing the lore, changing the camera, changing the skills, changing the attributes, and changing the core mechanics of the game isn't rebooting...
And there's just not enough _game_ to support a 'reboot' and the retroactive changes it would mean. If you want to reboot something do Meantime or Fountain of Dreams.
So the unfinished and unreleased Meantime and Fountain of Dreams each have more "game" than Wasteland...
Did you just forget the Night Terror? The one that ties into the story because it is there, but it shouldn't be there and sticks out if you know that it's not supposed to be there?
The Night Terror in WL1 doesn't stick out. It fits in the fever dream of Finster's ruined mind. It sticks out in WL2 because it's suddenly real with no explanation at all.
Or do you mean that the branching plots are a little too lean in places and that it would have been better to have some more options that let the players have some fun then get back to the plot and level grinding?
What are you even talking about here? That sounds like a critique of WL2, not the original.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 20th, 2019, 10:38 pm

Drool wrote: No, no I don't think I will. Rolling with it is what leads to more sloppy writing and plotting. Things that make absolutely no sense should be called out. I'm yelling into the void, but I'm going to continue to do so.
I got nothing to say, because I'm doing the same thing.
It just is, and we're supposed to enjoy it.
Drool wrote:"Here's your slop, enjoy."
No, I think it's better to have standards.
I totally agree. Perhaps if there had been some mention of downloading the Night Terror into it's ready cloned body? Something about the players just walking into a situation and hitting buttons with rocks? Manuals should be read, but we're solving everything with bullets. (Manuals should be read, but we solve it with lead?)
So... changing the lore, changing the camera, changing the skills, changing the attributes, and changing the core mechanics of the game isn't rebooting...
No, going to the beginning of where WL1 was in terms of story and starting there with all the new systems you just mentioned, in the hopes that it would occlude wl1 is 'rebooting.' Wl2 had a few problems, but it didn't do _that._
So the unfinished and unreleased Meantime and Fountain of Dreams each have more "game" than Wasteland...
But I thought that Meantime and Fountain were not completed and released to store shelves?
Did you just forget the Night Terror? The one that ties into the story because it is there, but it shouldn't be there and sticks out if you know that it's not supposed to be there?
The Night Terror in WL1 doesn't stick out. It fits in the fever dream of Finster's ruined mind. It sticks out in WL2 because it's suddenly real with no explanation at all.
The Terror is one of those "namedrop in" things, but I think it worked. It wasn't a must-do, and turned out much cooler than poor Vax. This may be one reason why you hate Terror, as they should both be powerful. Another is the game tourist reason why it's there, which you clearly adequately understand, and dislike. To me, it was another sign that the game programmers at least did their homework, and that 30 years passing would have had it's own events and adventures going on in that time.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 21st, 2019, 3:27 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 10:38 pm
So the unfinished and unreleased Meantime and Fountain of Dreams each have more "game" than Wasteland...
But I thought that Meantime and Fountain were not completed and released to store shelves?
They were not completed, nor were they released. That's why your assertion that they have more "game" than the actually completely and released Wasteland was so boggling.

EDIT: I'm mistaken. While Meantime was canceled, Fountain of Dreams was actually released. It was just an awful game that nobody liked and was generally considered to be one of the worst games ever made (at the point it was released) and had a terrible plot. So clearly I need to dig up a copy.
The Terror is one of those "namedrop in" things, but I think it worked.
No! That's the whole problem! The pointless namedrop that adds nothing to the game and only spits on the established history and lore. It's just the lazy stuffing of things from the first game with no thought or care.

"I saw the [Night Terror] and I clapped!" -Red Letter Media
This may be one reason why you hate Terror, as they should both be powerful.
I have been quite explicit with why I dislike the Night Terror. Some might say excruciatingly explicit. And its power level has nothing to do with it, if anything it was too powerful. The real Night Terror had nothing special about it aside from a massive health pool; it didn't hit hard.
To me, it was another sign that the game programmers at least did their homework
How can you say that with a straight face? The got a list of "big things" from the first game and just shoved them in. "Vax was a robot? Okay, stuff him in a cargo box. Night Terror was a thing in Darwin? Okay, stick him in Darwin." Nevermind that Vax was a highly intelligent administrative robot specializing in "human-cybrog relations". Nevermind that the Night Terror wasn't real. Sure. They did their homework.

In crayon.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 21st, 2019, 8:45 pm

Drool wrote:
July 21st, 2019, 3:27 pm
The Terror is one of those "namedrop in" things, but I think it worked.
No! That's the whole problem! The pointless namedrop that adds nothing to the game and only spits on the established history and lore. It's just the lazy stuffing of things from the first game with no thought or care.
No? But there's 20 other such namedrops that do what you just said, ranging from I spit on your grave to adds nothing. Terror is one that works, at least for me. It's tourist (If you'll look to your left, you'll see the reanimated corpse of Patrick Stewart trying to remember his lines. If you'll look to your right, you'll see Discovery just being mediocre. STDs are available at the gift shop!) but it works! They threw every idea they could find at us in an attempt to get SOMEthing to work!
To me, it was another sign that the game programmers at least did their homework
How can you say that with a straight face? The got a list of "big things" from the first game and just shoved them in. "Vax was a robot? Okay, stuff him in a cargo box. Night Terror was a thing in Darwin? Okay, stick him in Darwin." Nevermind that Vax was a highly intelligent administrative robot specializing in "human-cybrog relations". Nevermind that the Night Terror wasn't real. Sure. They did their homework.
In crayon. [/quote]
You aren't wrong. But when you leave Camalot, you can't expect a lot of Round Tables everywhere else you go. There was going to be a lot of changes for wl2, and they went too far with some of them. But they kept at least enough of the core bits to make it a sequel instead of a reboot. They may have glued it on randomly, but I have to give them points for doing so instead of ignoring the previous game entirely. Characters were kept, time had passed, things had happened, and yes it ended badly. Leaving for LA wasn't the best idea, but it was a good idea, and coming back to blow up Arizona was a terrible idea. While the programmers arn't going to minigame a WL Rebuild (like that Vault build game for Fallout) they should address the damage. I forget if the dead can be cloned in Darwin...
With wl3 not involving Arizona, now they get to do their own thing. Will they make it entertaining enough to make the new characters memorable? Or fall entirely down the sumphole with the rest of the teabagger games? I hope they don't expect Scotchmo to carry the whole game.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 22nd, 2019, 2:58 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 21st, 2019, 8:45 pm
Terror is one that works, at least for me.
Which is something I cannot understand. The Night Terror is pretty much the worst one in the whole game. What about it works for you? The fact that they spelled the name right? Because it was green?
You aren't wrong. But when you leave Camalot, you can't expect a lot of Round Tables everywhere else you go.
Ahh. I think I understand now. You have absolutely no standards, so you'll clap like a seal whenever anything is dropped in your lap.

"I saw [Vax] and I clapped!" -Red Letter Media
I forget if the dead can be cloned in Darwin...
You're going all mixed metaphors and word salad again, so I have no idea what you're going on about. But no. The clone tanks were in Sleeper One, not Darwin.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Mole204
Explorer
Posts: 264
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 23rd, 2019, 9:20 pm

Hey, if you don't like Terror, you can just avoid him and play on without it. You can make your same argument about Vargas, the Slicerdicers, and the Scorpitron. Maybe you just need to loosen up about it.

So, my standards are too high as well as I don't have any standards?

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 26th, 2019, 2:39 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 23rd, 2019, 9:20 pm
Hey, if you don't like Terror, you can just avoid him and play on without it.
This is a completely worthless point when discussing good game design practices.
You can make your same argument about Vargas, the Slicerdicers, and the Scorpitron.
I don't recall any of those being memories in Finster's brain.
So, my standards are too high as well as I don't have any standards?
I don't recall ever accusing you of having standards that are too high, but I could be mistaken.


---
Drool wrote:
July 21st, 2019, 3:27 pm
EDIT: I'm mistaken. While Meantime was canceled, Fountain of Dreams was actually released. It was just an awful game that nobody liked and was generally considered to be one of the worst games ever made (at the point it was released) and had a terrible plot. So clearly I need to dig up a copy.
So I did.

I would dearly like to know what mental midget decided it was a good idea to have end-game enemies in the wandering monster pool right outside the starting point. It'd be like if you stepped out of the Ranger Citadel and the first thing you saw was a Vanadium Vulture. Dying early is one thing, but when the first thing you see is not only unbeatable, but able to completely wipe your party in one round, and as a new player, you don't know this enemy's power level is just mind boggling.

Oh, and the fact that, once you've made your party you can no longer make Rangers, so you have to delete and re-install the game is just the brain-dead icing on the dumbass cake.

I also got a copy of Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego? (the first DOS game I ever played). It's held up much better.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest