Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Discussing the story & setting of Wasteland 2. Beware spoilers. Please avoid spoilers in thread titles.

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Marthos
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » November 3rd, 2014, 8:10 am

FinsterPrime wrote: It still doesn't account for the basement missing in wl1
A little imagination here is all that is needed. The entrance to the basement was hidden behind a wall and the original Ranger team missed it. Once the Rangers moved in to call the Citadel home, they noticed the fake wall, knocked it down, and found the doors.
or how any escaped alive since there are no random encounters to suggest there are always one or two that have been lurking and then got away, ya know? Once you've killed the last one that place is totally empty.
If a few Guardians escaped, how would the original Ranger team know about it? The Rangers, at least on my playthrough, never left a few guys guarding the door to make sure nobody escaped. So the writers are using my playthrough of the Citadel as canon :)

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 3rd, 2014, 8:17 am

Marthos wrote:
FinsterPrime wrote: It still doesn't account for the basement missing in wl1
A little imagination here is all that is needed. The entrance to the basement was hidden behind a wall and the original Ranger team missed it. Once the Rangers moved in to call the Citadel home, they noticed the fake wall, knocked it down, and found the doors.
I wish that were the case, because I could swallow that. However the room placed the huge elevator in was also in wl1 without the elevator so it's obvious it wasn't there. If they had discovered a hidden door, that would have made a lot more sense. It was just poor writing that put the elevator in the once open hallway.

Here are both main hall layouts from WL 1. Please circle where you see a HUGE elevator shaft. ;)
This map below is where you enter the citadel. The flags at the south entrance are still in wl2 too, plus you can see brick building ruins where parts of the old defensive sections in wl1 used to be.
Image

This map is deeper in the citadel the layout is fairly similar, though rooms have been re-purposed. the jail is still in the upper right too in wl2.
Image

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » November 3rd, 2014, 9:13 am

If the location of a door is considered a major plot hole in a game, I would say the game has been very successful in creating a sequel. To me, this is more like getting worked up over a Star Trek episode that incorrectly shows Worf's quarters on deck 40 instead of deck 41. I get what you're saying, but in the grand scheme of the story, just pretend the door is somewhere else in the Citadel. Wasteland 1 wasn't created with an immediate sequel in mind, so I am willing to give the writers/world designers plenty of leeway to create a good sequel. That includes putting a door in a map where it wouldn't fit in the first game.

There are much bigger plot holes and head scratchers, in my opinion, than that. Finding out that the Rangers have helicopters really make a lot of the earlier parts of Arizona puzzling (didn't have to let AgCenter/HP die, could have done a quick flyover to Damonta, etc). That's all self-contained in the same game, so there is really much of an excuse.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 3rd, 2014, 10:31 am

It's not jus tthat there was a door missing or in a bad spot in the sequel. It's the extremely poor story telling that say there is now a NEW basement level that didn't exist at all in wl1 but is now in the citadel in wl2.

It's like if Fallout 4 comes out and says "Surprise! The Enclave actually had a secret base right under vault 101! President Eden backed himself up there before Raven Rock was destroyed!" and add an elevator in a spot that was clearly a hallway in f3.

It's just bad writing, plain and simple.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » November 3rd, 2014, 11:57 am

FinsterPrime wrote:It's not jus tthat there was a door missing or in a bad spot in the sequel. It's the extremely poor story telling that say there is now a NEW basement level that didn't exist at all in wl1 but is now in the citadel in wl2
I suppose it is a little bit overdone. There's a new basement level in Highpool (okay maybe its new construction) and then the one in Darwin's Village with all of Finster's research.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by BetaSpectre » November 6th, 2014, 4:14 pm

It would have been alot easier to say that the Rangers moved into a different base, and took it out instead of using the old one. Alternatively we could retcon Wasteland 1 as a false retelling of how things used to be and how much better the Rangers are because of idealism from the General. (Super weapons, Better Uniforms, Better contacts)

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Priest4hire » November 7th, 2014, 12:35 am

There is one disconnect between the games that always bugged me. Consider this: What if the Rangers were wiped out right at the end of the original Wasteland. Everyone but the player controlled team that is. Every man, woman and child brutally killed. Obviously this would contradict the ending, but let's ignore that for the sake of argument. What exactly would have to be changed in Wasteland 2? Anything? Is there a single character that would have to be taken out, or a plot point altered? Hell, Vargas doesn't even mention the survivalist communities in the intro movie.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by BetaSpectre » November 7th, 2014, 10:46 am

You'll lose a few people like ACE, but for the plot's sake I'd say not much would have changed. In fact looking at how much the Rangers lost in those 15 years you could say that Vargas and co just re-made the rangers and holed up in the base.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Revenant Prime » November 18th, 2014, 4:35 pm

I side with Finster on this

It simply comes down to Occam's Razor; the more 'maybe', 'plausibly', 'what if' and 'perhaps' you need to apply to justify a retcon the more blatant the retcon is.
Hell the plot has enough holes on its own, I don't think continuity was a major point during development.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by PangaeaTNO » November 19th, 2014, 10:48 am

The Rangers must be lazy bastards. We are told they've tried explosives and such to open the elevator. But tie a rope to one of those gigantic beams and lower yourself down to the level below to check out what is down there? Neh, fuck that, too much effort.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by WebShaman » November 21st, 2014, 10:27 am

It is really quite simple :

The maps from Wasteland are not accurate. Since there is no way to verify this other than the fact that we KNOW that the doors are there in Wasteland 2, then we need to address that.

And if, in Wasteland 3, there are other "discrepancies", well, then Wasteland 2 is in error.

You need to place yourself in the here and now, instead of going back to ancient maps from yesterday that obviously are not accurate ("Go take a look for yourself, Ranger. The doors are right there...hell, we have been trying to open them for what seems like FOREVER, to no effect. The game you found obviously is wrong").

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by WebShaman » November 21st, 2014, 10:30 am

PangaeaTNO wrote:The Rangers must be lazy bastards. We are told they've tried explosives and such to open the elevator. But tie a rope to one of those gigantic beams and lower yourself down to the level below to check out what is down there? Neh, fuck that, too much effort.
I would tend to go in the opposite direction - I would give the Rangers the benefit of the doubt here, and say they tried everything they could think of, and it didn't work. Must be something preventing one from being able to just be lowered down to the level below. After all, what would be the point of having such massive security doors, when one could just lower a rope?

I mean...hehe...yeah, I don't think you really thought that one completely through. Would be pretty damned funny if it was true, though.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » November 21st, 2014, 10:50 am

There are stairs that lead up to the room next to the helicopter, no elevator needed. What was stopping the Rangers from getting into that room and using the stairs to get down to the computer? Just too well hidden for anyone to notice?

It's been too long for me to remember, but when you fly to LA, is there any indication on that side there is a door there?

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by PangaeaTNO » November 21st, 2014, 12:20 pm

Maybe they never thought of looking behind the Citadel, or inside it, or wherever the helicopter is located. So that's why they didn't use it to save Highpool/Ag Center. They didn't know. Then one evening Vargas was on the bottle, he took a walk around the back to take a leak, and... "HOLY SHIT, look at that....!!"

:mrgreen:

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » January 12th, 2015, 7:58 am

Because of the disconnect between what happened in wasteland 1 the poorly written revisionist history inside the WL2 game I cannot consider wl2 canon in the series. It's a total joke and insulting to anyone who took the time to play the first wasteland through to the end.

I'm selling my collector's edition WL2 box (unopened) on ebay.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mercer Skye » July 7th, 2019, 3:23 am

Since I'm in the habit of Necro'ing threads now that I'm actually completing the game in my free time, Might as well keep at it. Hopefully with some fresh perspective. (I hope, some of this is my own head canon, and some is just trying to tie threads together)

The Elevator in WL2's Ranger Occupied Citadel. Other than the 'Negative space is bad, let's make holes around the inaccessible elevator in the middle' artistic choice, It's plausible that the elevator was a 'sunken feature.' There's a chance that The Citadel was a 'Base under a base' Command center for the other three bases. Run of the mill, old school barracks setting on top (Extra personnel for duty rotations at the other three. It's not uncommon now for guards to cycle around different areas of high security installations, and also not to all be housed at the same location they're guarding). Once the original team came through and wiped out the bulk of the guardians, and then left to wipe out Cochise, they understandably 'lifted the trapdoor' to escape. If anything, the worst offense here is giving the door 'plot armor.' (Arguably needed otherwise you could just head on down and not even worry about Matthias' threat in LA and just wipe out Cochise once and for all before you get anywhere else in the story. Not fun rolling credits 10 minutes in...)

Speaking of the Matthias threat, easily explains why we didn't send a chopper full of rangers to help the other township we don't save. Vargas may play it cool and 'dumb' at times (He acts pretty oblivious to the man/machine merger idea for most all of Act 1), but it scares him enough that he's not wasting the little bit of fuel they have (Remember, 150 years since the bombs fell, fuel isn't exactly a common thing anymore) to relieve a 'symptom' of the coming threat. He knows there's more than a good chance that Matthias at least is threat that would make High Pool or Ag Center getting wiped out small potatoes. Everyone says it's a big decision that we have to make, and they're not wrong, but Vargas had a worse one, 'Save these people he knows are in trouble, or sacrifice them for a threat that has a chance to be nothing.'

Back to Cochise AI. In WL1, it's obviously Bat**** crazy. There's hints in the text (unless you read it 100% at face value, and even then...) that it could've been unstable before the bombs fell. Remember, we don't get the 'big reveal' that it was responsible for WW3 until the Climax of WL2, when it thinks it's finally achieved its goal of becoming a far reaching, irremovable force in the world. It's not a stretch of the imagination that it concealed that it would still be contained in the node at the old guardian base. It says it went psycho after the fact, probably calculating a 100 ways it could downplay its story to where we wouldn't think it was a threat after Cochise goes sky high. Because it knows we're going to blow Cochise off the map. It needs the shells that fled the Ranger assault to make it back to the old Citadel so that it can achieve its goals. It's taking a calculated gamble that we can't get those doors open before Matthias gets back (This is where I don't like the writing, because it'd have been 100% better in my opinion to have just left that elevator concealed until we needed to get down, it's not even good foreshadowing the way they did it)

I think that about covers the majority of points here. Again, apologies for dragging up old material. Just one of those talking points I felt compelled to add to, for those who still hang around these forums.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 7th, 2019, 2:41 pm

Mercer Skye wrote: ↑
July 7th, 2019, 3:23 am
Back to Cochise AI. In WL1, it's obviously Bat**** crazy. There's hints in the text (unless you read it 100% at face value, and even then...) that it could've been unstable before the bombs fell.
WL1 heavily implies that it was at least partially responsible for the events leading to Citadel shutting down and wiping out the rest of the satellites. Either because the AI went crazy or because Edsel was pretty insane to begin with, or a bit of both.
(This is where I don't like the writing, because it'd have been 100% better in my opinion to have just left that elevator concealed until we needed to get down, it's not even good foreshadowing the way they did it)
Would have been better if WL2 only spent about 10% in Arizona before shipping off to California and then staying there. The final fight back in Arizona was poorly done. The need for fanservice and callbacks severely weakened the story as a whole.

But then, I actually argued against including the Scorpitron, and now it seems they're running around in Colorado too. Hiding under snow and materializing on the surface with no displacement of snow or earth.
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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mercer Skye » July 10th, 2019, 4:05 pm

I didn't mind that there was a good chunk in Arizona. I get the whole 'circle the wagons before shipping off,' But that sense of urgency Vargas seems to have just gets diluted and defeated by how much lingering we have to go through before heading out.

They had to chop so many areas off to release the game, they were just not going to win on the fan service front. I appreciated the 'Throwback and familiarity' approach for what it is; pretty much catching those not familiar with the first story up to the 'present' without actually redoing the whole game.

There are definitely some choices that I would say were 'wrong,' but I think it might have been the classic trap of 'Well, it sounded good on paper, and now we can't unburn the bridge.'

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Mole204 » July 11th, 2019, 12:48 am

I agree that wl2 seems to have been done by people who were speed reading a condensed version of wl1, and told to just pick out some things to namedrop in. Then add some random 80s stuff as items. We should admit that they at least went to the trouble to DO so, and that the result wasn't half bad- but it was badly grafted in and screws over both the world of wl1 and the player in a number of map-areas. Including being jerked away from Arizona, then back from LA.
It's still better than The Last Jedi.
The need for fanservice and callbacks helped support the enjoyability of the story as a whole. It's a sequel, even if it IS the attempt to create a new and successful game.
Having Cochise 2 in the basement of the same building that the Rangers just happen to be in was lazy writing, not reuse of assets. They could have used the Leve Lupe mine for example, instead of kerbooming the HQ.
I hope they managed to save a few wagons of hastily thrown in relics and treasures when it all hit the chopping fan. It would make a predictable setup (as in of COURSE it would happen you can't not do X. Now make it fun!) for a find the treasure run. Stuff from the museum, maps, half a payroll box, a Teddy Ruxpin with a 30 minute long modem recording...

"But then, I actually argued against including the Scorpitron, and now it seems they're running around in Colorado too. "
1- the Scorpitron is a unique robot that's center to the Wasteland game. Like dragons for DnD, or the Death Star for Star Wars. If they're bringing back WL, they'd have to use the Scorpitron. Mulefoot, not so much.
2- I think it logical to believe the "military contracting" angle for the creation of their super weapons. There's going to be a secret warehouse of blueprints, a secret warehouse of parts for the things, and a secret warehouse of dead factory workers who put them all together. Not counting the extra warehouse for forging documents of the "You don't actually think they spend $20,000 on a hammer, $30,000 on a toilet seat, do you?" kind. So having a few extra Scorpitrons running around post-nuked USA is sensible. And we don't even know if they were all working for the same department. It would be unlikely that they are all the same model, too. A Scorpitron built by the navy would be different from one built by the army, or one built in the crazy AI's garage.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » July 11th, 2019, 7:22 pm

Mole204 wrote: ↑
July 11th, 2019, 12:48 am
I agree that wl2 seems to have been done by people who were speed reading a condensed version of wl1, and told to just pick out some things to namedrop in.
Hey, we can agree on things.
Then add some random 80s stuff as items. We should admit that they at least went to the trouble to DO so, and that the result wasn't half bad- but it was badly grafted in and screws over both the world of wl1 and the player in a number of map-areas.
I disagree. The original had plenty of 80s references. Well, as much as could be fit within a single megabyte. But Scot's Bar and the Guardian's Citadel both had them. And the general theme was 80s post-apocalypse like how Fallout was 50s.
The need for fanservice and callbacks helped support the enjoyability of the story as a whole.
Disagree here, too. Fan service is rarely good. We both agree that Darwin was poorly executed, for instance, and it was pure fan service. Hell, pretty much all of the Arizona section was. I mean, was anybody satisfied with how they handled the Night Terror? Or Vax?
It's a sequel, even if it IS the attempt to create a new and successful game.
A good sequel builds on the previous, as opposed to aping (or ignoring) the original. It's a delicate balance. WL2 was too much of a retread. Hell, it would have taken less tweaking to make it a reboot of WL1 than to clean it up as a sequel.
1- the Scorpitron is a unique robot that's center to the Wasteland game. Like dragons for DnD, or the Death Star for Star Wars. If they're bringing back WL, they'd have to use the Scorpitron. Mulefoot, not so much.
Mmm... no, I disagree here, too. The Scorpitron was, essentially, a mini-boss. Judging by its location and the fact that it's unique in the world, means it was probably placed to keep Faran Brygo on lock-down as he was the one most likely to interfere with Cochise's plans. I also wouldn't consider it "cent[ral] to the Wasteland game" as it's entirely optional. You don't need to talk to Faran and, indeed, are likely to complete skip over him.

I would consider the Octotrons to be a much better analogy to dragons: they were extremely powerful end game foes, and there was an elevated version as a miniboss (the Fusion Octotron). Likewise, the Cyborgs (and the upgraded Hexborgs) were the Vegas version of the Octotrons. The Scorpitron was certainly memorable (even if it looked very different than the WL2 version), but, if anything, I would say it's more like the Terrasque in D&D than a dragon. The Terrasque would be much less memorable and impactful if you fought them all over the place. I would have preferred WL2 to have created a new unique foe to fight instead of just pulling the Scorpitron out of retirement.
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A Scorpitron built by the navy would be different from one built by the army, or one built in the crazy AI's garage.
My assumption was that the one in Vegas was made by Cochise in the first place.
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