Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Discussing the story & setting of Wasteland 2. Beware spoilers. Please avoid spoilers in thread titles.

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Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » October 31st, 2014, 9:22 am

First I want to say that I enjoyed the game mechanics & graphics. I also enjoyed some of the sub plot lines. This rant is targeted at the main plot(mostly). I know the WL2 team worked very hard to make it a reality and I appreciate everything they have done. I mean NO disrespect.

I have played WL1 over 40 times on Apple II, PC, and C64. I have seen every single line of text that marvel had in it. I waited a long time to see what happened to the Wasteland I grew up with.

Plot Issues: Below are facts from WL1 not interpretations
A- The Guardians were all wiped out in wl1
B- Cochise AI didn't start ww3, it only became aware after war started per WL1.
C- There was no citadel basement to backup the cochise AI in WL1!

See below for details :)

The game felt like the people who wrote it didn't play through wasteland 1 or know the lore (or forgot it?) Here's why I say that:

1) The Guardians were all wiped out in WL1, no one fled, the player kills every last one. [Update: There are No random encounters anywhere in the citadel, so they are all gone when you have killed the last one!] The only helicopter in citadel base was used by the player's squad (if they choose). The guardians were xenophobic and had ZERO ties to Base Cochise, Sleeper Base, OR Project Darwin. Why no robots in citadel or cyborgs?? IF the 3 of those facilities were actually a team, there would have been no taking of guardian citadel in wl1, and sleeper base 1 would not have been as sleepy. OH and I think players would have noticed a HUGE elevator in the main hall of the Guardian Citadel in wl1.

If in WL1 the Guardians were in league with Cochise, they could have been converted fast, no waiting! BUT that didn't happen! Cochise was churning out cyborgs and robots like there was no tomorrow (because there may not be) well before you start your mission in wl21, so why would the Guardians not be already converted if they were buddies? There was zero connection.

Let's say one or two fully human Guardians survived...how would they ever make it off the AZ map alive? The borders were too hazardous of a wasteland, impossible to travel through. The Rangers even reference this in wl2.

[update] Here is a quote from wl1 as to which bases are connected:
paragraph 90 "Faded but still visible you see a map tacked on the wall of the area before the war. You see a small star that roughly corresponds, as nearly as you can tell, to the base you now stand inside. Almost directly south you see a second star, and directly west, at the map's far edge, you see a third star."
Sleeper, Darwin, and Cochise only, no hotline to the citadel!

2) You discover in WL1 that Base Cochise was hit by a nuke and attempted to repair itself. The damage to it's logic caused it to think it's new program was to wipe out life and rebuild with robots.This new WL2 plot concept that Base Cochise actually decided to pretend a meteor shower was a missile strike is unnecessary revisionist history that ruins the more interesting and more LOGICAL plot from wl1, is insultingly stupid. Base Cochise was part of the a government plan that included project Darwin, and sleeperbase only, not the guardian citadel at all!

[update] Quote from the AI in wl1:
"Cochise was a second Sleeper Base, but you know that. I became aware during the attack, and have pushed my program since then. Though I did take damage in the attack, I repaired it. Once life has passed, I will release the new life as the creator wished."
There you go - AI couldn't start a snow fight even if it wanted to before the war! lol

At the end of WL1 Base Cochise was vaporized and it was not connected to the citadel's (new) basement hard drive or anywhere else. There were no satellites or internet or anything in wl1. If the AI was connected to darwin, sleeper, and the citadel...Why didn't Cochise back itself up to the sleeper base computers or even the Darwin facility too? Especially sicne Cochise plans to copy itself everyone at the end of wl2. It make no sense.

[update]Why would the robots and AI scream as " they realize that they too are mortal" from the wl1 ending sequence. Doesn't sound like they backed up anything.


3) Arizona - It's just bad story telling to say radiation clouds shifted and prevented communication between the rangers and las vegas, quarts, etc...You are radioing LA but you cant radio the rest of AZ?!! You even have a Helicopter that could fly to vegas etc, but they dont...for no reason.

4) After wl1 you are unstoppable with power armor and super energy weapons. Why would the rangers not advance their tech after 15 years? Why would they not be uber popular and be able to recruit enough people to properly patrol AZ>?!

5) Why did you change all the Az maps? Almost none of the maps you explore resemble the original maps of wl1...did the cities decide to tear everything down, and rebuild now crumbling buildings? The prison map has very little to do with the prison! Once you get into the prison, there's really nothing there...Just like Darwin.

6) Instead of the rangers setting up new bases /branches at sleeper, darwin, Vegas etc they decide to NOT do that and not even study the tech each had to offer. The level of tech the rangers had available at the end of wl1 was staggering, but they didnt want it I guess?

The game is full of opportunities to build on the rich & interesting history of wl1 missed. Instead, the closest you get to these things is in conversation with people. For example, the battle of Cochise would be like storming the beaches of Normandy in our history books. When you ask other people/rangers about the battle of base Cochise you get "Oh there was a some crazy computer that wanted to kill people, so we blew it up" This was very disappointing. I felt as though the world took a step backwards after the events of wl1 in some ways. It's like no one looked at the plots/maps/etc in relationship to wl1 for continuity into wl2 very well.

Bonus rant:
The tons of text content advertised is nothing more then 100 npcs saying the same thing slightly different (copy n paste style) and it was a waste of time.


Best,

FP
Last edited by FinsterPrime on November 2nd, 2014, 5:15 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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Raestloz
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes, did they play WL1?

Post by Raestloz » October 31st, 2014, 9:35 am

Well, the accusation would hurt Mr. Fargo, he is one of the creators of the original Wasteland

I did not play Wasteland, but I can agree that the attack on Base Cochise, played as THE saving grace of humanity, is downplayed very, very much. It's like, when you ask about it they just give a quick overview and that's that.

Not that I'd like a ton of text every time I speak of it, but it'd be nice if people get a bit more passionate when we try to talk about that. it's hard to convey emotions with text, but that's what punctuations are for
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes, did they play WL1?

Post by FinsterPrime » October 31st, 2014, 9:38 am

Raestloz wrote:Well, the accusation would hurt Mr. Fargo, he is one of the creators of the original Wasteland
Point taken, I changed the title, and I have only the utmost respect for Mr Fargo and his team. :)

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » October 31st, 2014, 10:13 am

The Guardians did have all four of the self-destruct keys for Cochise in their possession. There is some story to be told on how they acquired those.

It's been a long time for me, so I may be wrong here, but if you take out the Citadel before getting the Cochise location from Max, does the Helicopter know how to get to Cochise? If that location was programmed into its computer as a destination, that could indicate that there has been some back and forth between the Citadel and Cochise.

As for killing all of them, I don't think we can draw that conclusion in WL1. Every Guardian we saw in WL1 we killed, but did we see every Guardian? And not everyone we kill in WL1 stays dead (RSM).

3) The presence of the helicopters is a bit jarring...why did the Rangers let Highpool/Ag Center fall when they could have sent rangers there in time with a helicopter? Why are the other teams looking for Quartz on foot? How did they not know about Damonta after 15 years...nobody flew a chopper a little bit east?

4/6) Compare what you start out with in WL1 against WL2. Pistols vs heavy weapons &energy weapons. The biggest problem we learn in WL2 isn't the lack of technological know-how, but lack of quality materials. That's why the weapon maker wants broken weapon parts, to piece together whatever he can for the Rangers. As for not being able to recruit people...we did do a lot of bad things in Wasteland (HighPool, killed a tribe of Topekans baby and all, random howitzer fire) and other than Las Vegas, everyone else just had to take our word for it that we saved their butt by blowing up Cochise.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » October 31st, 2014, 10:38 am

Marthos wrote:The Guardians did have all four of the self-destruct keys for Cochise in their possession. There is some story to be told on how they acquired those.

It's been a long time for me, so I may be wrong here, but if you take out the Citadel before getting the Cochise location from Max, does the Helicopter know how to get to Cochise? If that location was programmed into its computer as a destination, that could indicate that there has been some back and forth between the Citadel and Cochise.

As for killing all of them, I don't think we can draw that conclusion in WL1. Every Guardian we saw in WL1 we killed, but did we see every Guardian? And not everyone we kill in WL1 stays dead (RSM).
All good points. But if the Guardians are in with the AI from the start, why no hint of that level of tech in the citadel? No robots or even cyborgs.

I think the guardians knew of Cochise and, because of their tech-lust, had attempted to take it, but were never strong enough. Why wouldn't the Guardians have stripped Sleeper Base of tech if they were aware of it also, same for Darwin?

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » October 31st, 2014, 10:49 am

FinsterPrime wrote: All good points. But if the Guardians are in with the AI from the start, why no hint of that level of tech in the citadel? No robots or even cyborgs.
Good question.
I think the guardians knew of Cochise and, because of their tech-lust, had attempted to take it, but were never strong enough. Why wouldn't the Guardians have stripped Sleeper Base of tech if they were aware of it also, same for Darwin?
I'll go with that. That would explain how the Guardians got so many power armors and energy weapons. If I remember right, nobody else in the desert had that type of gear (energy/chitin/power armor), and you only find a few suits of power armor and a few energy weapons in Sleeper Base. It could very well be that the Guardians cleared out as much as they could carry from Sleeper Base, but left a few things behind. At some point it seems the Guardians stopped scavenging the world for artifacts and locked themselves in their fortress (possibly when they failed to break into Cochise and hooked up with the AI for the first time?)

I still don't have any theory on how they their hands on the self-destruct cards. Unless they were the descendants of the scientists that fled Base Cochise right after the war? But I would think, as scientists, they'd care more about the future than the past tech, and their goal would be to destroy Cochise, not hide.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » October 31st, 2014, 11:11 am

Marthos wrote:I still don't have any theory on how they their hands on the self-destruct cards. Unless they were the descendants of the scientists that fled Base Cochise right after the war? But I would think, as scientists, they'd care more about the future than the past tech, and their goal would be to destroy Cochise, not hide.
The 4 keys could have been recovered from Sleeper Base 1 as it has details about Cochise's construction.

It would be great if Michael Stackpole and the others would chime in and explain what the facts were on these topics.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Marthos » October 31st, 2014, 11:19 am

FinsterPrime wrote: It would be great if Michael Stackpole and the others would chime in and explain what the facts were on these topics.
It would be even better if they explained these facts in Wasteland 3 :D

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Raestloz » October 31st, 2014, 11:40 am

Question:

When Cochise misinterpreted meteor shower as Russian ICBM, did both US and Russia have their ICBMs directed at the entire world?

To me, it looks a helluva lot like the Russians and US have their ICBMs targeted at each other. Like I said, I did not play the original Wasteland, but it looks like Chochise assumed that humanity consists only of USA and Russia. What happened to South America or Western Europe?
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » October 31st, 2014, 12:06 pm

Raestloz wrote:Question:

When Cochise misinterpreted meteor shower as Russian ICBM, did both US and Russia have their ICBMs directed at the entire world?

To me, it looks a helluva lot like the Russians and US have their ICBMs targeted at each other. Like I said, I did not play the original Wasteland, but it looks like Chochise assumed that humanity consists only of USA and Russia. What happened to South America or Western Europe?
Image

The intro to WL1 explains that the "Computer defense initiative activated. Diplomatic solutions to the world's problems fail and war erupts as some madmen press ahead with their insane dreams." and shows global nuclear destruction (apple II & C64 only show animation but the text only is on pc too)

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » October 31st, 2014, 2:31 pm

It's a bit of retroactive continuity.
Marthos wrote:It's been a long time for me, so I may be wrong here, but if you take out the Citadel before getting the Cochise location from Max, does the Helicopter know how to get to Cochise?
"Yes, but..."

The helicopter knows how to go to Cochise, but the only way to unlock the helicopter is with the Helicopter Piloting skill, which you can only get from Sleeper, which you can only get to with Max's information. It's a great shortcut on follow up playthroughs, but on the first one, there's no way to use it without Max.
FinsterPrime wrote:If in WL1 the Guardians were in league with Cochise, they could have been converted fast, no waiting!
For what it's worth, two of the novellas deal with the post-Max portion of the game, and help smooth over this change of perspective.
The borders were too hazardous of a wasteland, impossible to travel through. The Rangers even reference this in wl2.
Not as impossible as the Rangers seem to think. One of the California Shrines has a guy who walked from Arizona. Besides, the Rangers also thought that California was wiped out. I wouldn't necessarily considering them the best source of information outside their (tiny) sphere of influence.
2) You discover in WL1 that Base Cochise was hit by a nuke and attempted to repair itself.
Do we? I don't recall that at all. In fact, the personnel files in Sleeper One seem to imply that Cochise was well on the way to psychosis before everything went to hell. It's possible I've forgotten, though; it's been awhile since I talked to Cochise in a game.
ruins the more interesting and more LOGICAL plot from wl1, is insultingly stupid.
That the base survived a direct nuclear strike is more logical than the AI going all Skynet? The stuff about the meteors is fleshing out what was already in the game manual from WL1: specifically, the Citadel Starstation going offline.
Base Cochise was part of the a government plan that included project Darwin, and sleeperbase only, not the guardian citadel at all!
Eh. Take a moment to look at the location and internal layout of the Guardian Citadel in the original game. Also note the highly advanced, military attack helicopter that they had. I think it's pretty clear that the Citadel was a former military base. I've even described it as such before the Cochise/Citadel connection was revealed in WL2.
If the AI was connected to darwin, sleeper, and the citadel...Why didn't Cochise back itself up to the sleeper base computers or even the Darwin facility too?
Oh, that's easy. Sleeper One was in shutdown mode, essentially running on backup emergency power. The doors worked, but that's about it. In fact, one of your tasks is repairing the generator with a power converter. The whole base was offline (potentially even sabotaged by the staff when they realized what was going on). As for Darwin, do you really need to ask? It was made abundantly clear that Finster had rebelled about Cochise and was trying desperately to build up his own army. He would have cut every hardline and connection to Cochise long ago.

The only place left for Cochise was the final military base in the area, one that was full of fanatics who worshiped pre-war artifacts in general and particularly worshiped pre-war technology.
You are radioing LA but you cant radio the rest of AZ?!! You even have a Helicopter that could fly to vegas etc, but they dont...for no reason.
Well, yeah. That's lazy writing that some of us have been bitching about since the first beta.
Why would the rangers not advance their tech after 15 years?
Oh, come on now. If I park the Starship Enterprise on your front lawn and come back in fifteen years, can I berate you for not having managed to mass produce it as well as build something better? Frankly, simply keeping things working is pretty good. It's not like they can run to Radio Shack for spare parts.

And then there's all the game design reasons, but we're talking narrative here.
The tons of text content advertised is nothing more then 100 npcs saying the same thing slightly different and it was a waste of time.
I disagree with this particular assessment, but to each his own.
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 1st, 2014, 7:01 am

Hi Drool - Thank you for responding to my post, it's an honor. :) (no joke)

Here are the facts directly from WL1 - I will be adding them to by original post as well:

Here is what we know about Cochise and the connected military bases from WL1:

As to which bases in wl1 are connected:
The only connected bases are listed in paragraph 90 "Faded but still visible you see a map tacked on the wall of the area before the war. You see a small star that roughly corresponds, as nearly as you
can tell, to the base you now stand inside. Almost directly south you see a
second star, and directly west, at the map's far edge, you see a third star."
Sleeper, Darwin, and Cochise only.

If the Guardian citadel was a base, it wouldn't have brass/iron plated wooden doors, stained glass church, a large wooden gate that had be opened by hand with a pulley system, and stone walls?? What military base uses these things? It would also have had sleek walls like sleeper or cochise too. Descriptions of the citadel from wl1:
"The Citadel doors are massive and wholly made of bronze. Each stands 25 feet high and is inscribed with Guardian sayings."
"This is the Guardian's Grand Hallway. The vaulted ceiling is lost in darkness above you."
"The door blocking your path is stout and constructed of thick wood bound by iron. It is locked."
"These interior walls are built of layered stone and seem built to withstand a siege."
There's more where that came from too...

AS for the helicopter; it allows you to go anywhere you know about: "One-way only: A) Base Cochise B) Junkyard Village C) Sleeper Base D) Vegas E) Quartz F) Needles" It's not only programmed to go to cochise. It's asking the player where they want to go based on them having known of the listed destinations. Players couldn't have gotten to the chopper without speaking to max as you mentioned thus placing sleeper and cochise on the maps with a script. Otherwise if you don't talk to max, those two locations don't show up on the world map at all. The theory that the chopper is proof that the guardians were linked to cochise is not plausible to me.

As for the cochise AI:

The paragraphs explain that Edsel (the coder for the ai) was obsessed with the AI project, not that the AI was unstable.

91 Dr. Franklin Beams's personnel file flashes up onto the screen. Aside
from a large amount of test scores and other data, an occasional paragraph of
interest slides by. One that catches your eye reads, in part "Dr. Beams's
assessment of Edsel's obsessive behavior concerning the computer and AI just
works as another nail in Edsel's coffin.
The faster I can get him out of here,
the better. Let Cochise's boss deal with a fully-aware computer." Finster was the boss by the way. "A plaque set in the wall notes Base Cochise was built in 1984 and that John I. Finster was the first director."

40 Maj. Harrison Edsel's personnel file flashes up onto the screen.
Aside from a large amount of test scores and other data, an occasional
paragraph of interest slides by. One that catches your eye reads, in pan,
"The discipline problem with Edsel has resolved itself. Once he learned he
would be transferred to Base Cochise to program that computer with his new
artificial intelligence routines, he stopped complaining about the primitive
rules restricting his creativity on this project."

101 Lt. Russet Heller's personnel file flashes up onto the screen.
Aside from a large amount of test scores and other data, an occasional
paragraph of interest slides by. One that catches your eye reads, in part,
'"I thought Heller would be a discipline problem, but he's not. His jokes
relieve the tension as we work to finish this base. Others worry about the
news that Edsel's new computer is helping to finish Cochise all by itself,
but Heller shrugs it off. 'Who wants to work with someone who won't sit down
for a cold beer after the work's done anyway?' Perhaps mankind does stand a
chance against superior machines."

From speaker box of Cochise itself in WL1:
"How droll. I could describe my mission, Base Cochise or any other subject, though most are beyond you."
"My mission? To repopulate the Earth with pure stock once my minions have destroyed all other life. I will win."
"Cochise was a second Sleeper Base, but you know that. I became aware during the attack, and have pushed my program since then. Though I did take damage in the attack, I repaired it. Once life has passed, I will release the new life as the creator wished."
"I must destroy all impure life so only the pure life I release can live in the world!"
"This base makes robots to destroy life, then will make the pure life for the world."

The Cochise was not self-aware or manipulating anything until after the war started.

Also at the end of the wl1 game it says "robots scream as they realize that they too are mortal" from the ending sequence. Doesn't sound like they backed up anything. If they were all one with the AI like wl2 implies, they wouldn't care...they'll be backed up. ;)

This trumps the revisionist history created for wl2.

I also just noticed that in the kickstarter it says that Jason Anderson wrote the plot for wl2, but in the release credits he's been reduced to "Additional wtriting and design". Does that mean Nathan Long come up with this revision? I saw he tried to revise history in one of the novellas too...Where did I see that...here is one:

Vargas gave me a look. “Guess your memory is messed up. You got the location from us when
we radioed for help lookin’ for Sleeper Base One. A fella name of Max told us it’s northwest of
Vegas, but we already kinda figured that out from all the reports coming from up that way.”

Max told the team about cochise in the sewers in person. They wouldn't even know about sleeper one to ask around about it if Max hadn't told them first.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » November 1st, 2014, 3:51 pm

FinsterPrime wrote:If the Guardian citadel was a base, it wouldn't have brass/iron plated wooden doors, stained glass church, a large wooden gate that had be opened by hand with a pulley system, and stone walls??
Stone walls, sure: it's built into a mountain. The doors could have been added after the fact. Furthermore, I wager that every single military base in America (and most anywhere in the world) has some form of chapel. The portcullis isn't completely out of the realm of possibility as a method of blocking off secure locations. Probably not chain-and-pulley, but that could also be after-the-fact jury rigging. Furthermore, look at most of the Outer Sanctum: it's a barracks.
Otherwise if you don't talk to max, those two locations don't show up on the world map at all. The theory that the chopper is proof that the guardians were linked to cochise is not plausible to me.
Correct, they aren't on the map. However, if you use the reset tool (or recopied floppies if you were C64/Apple user), you could still go to Cochise without ever visiting Vegas. Like I said, it's a programming limitation more than anything, but it could be used as justification.

I mean, obviously the Guardians/Cochise link is a retrofit. I agree that it doesn't exist in the original game. However, mild retroactive continuity is common in video game sequels, and the question isn't so much "did WL1 definitively state that the Guardians were working with Cochise" so much as it's "is this plausible given what we know from WL1?"

I maintain that it's plausible. The Guardians aren't specifically linked to Cochise, but, 1) the Citadel looks very much like it started life as a military base, 2) the Guardians had military-grade hardware (the chopper, the energy weapons, the armor), 3) the Guardians were obsessed with pre-war artifacts and technology. It's a matter of verisimilitude, and I think that the game (especially when coupled with the novellas) does a sufficient job.
The paragraphs explain that Edsel (the coder for the ai) was obsessed with the AI project, not that the AI was unstable.
Ah, but things can't be taken in isolation. Look at the gestalt:

"Let Cochise's boss deal with a fully-aware computer" "complaining about the primitive rules restricting his creativity on this project" "Edsel's new computer is helping to finish Cochise all by itself"

You have an unstable, antisocial man programming the AI and personality of a super computer, and then letting the partially-finished computer finishing the job by itself. There's no way that doesn't end in tears. Again, the paragraphs aren't coming out and saying "Yo, the Cochise AI was completely nuts, homes" but it looks clear to me that Cochise was never in the same neighborhood as sane.
I became aware during the attack, and have pushed my program since then. Though I did take damage in the attack, I repaired it. Once life has passed, I will release the new life as the creator wished.
This directly contradicts the personnel paragraph you quoted earlier, which says Cochise was finishing its own programming. Maybe it didn't consider itself fully aware, but if a program is finishing itself, it's self aware as far as I'm concerned.
Also at the end of the wl1 game it says "robots scream as they realize that they too are mortal" from the ending sequence. Doesn't sound like they backed up anything. If they were all one with the AI like wl2 implies, they wouldn't care...they'll be backed up.
Well, Matthias thought he was immortal too... until Cochise disabused him of that. And part of the problem was that Cochise couldn't back anything up, because he had no connection to anything else. Sleeper One was offline; Darwin was self-isolated. The Guardians were willing to help, but they were primitive screwheads... and they were mostly wiped out by those jerk Rangers.
Vargas gave me a look. “Guess your memory is messed up. You got the location from us when
we radioed for help lookin’ for Sleeper Base One. A fella name of Max told us it’s northwest of
Vegas, but we already kinda figured that out from all the reports coming from up that way.”

Max told the team about cochise in the sewers in person. They wouldn't even know about sleeper one to ask around about it if Max hadn't told them first.
Oh, now you're being excessively pedantic (and this is me saying that). If I tell you Joliet is southwest of Chicago, that doesn't mean you can find it, and that doesn't mean that you might not call someone asking for help finding the location. Hell, even the game says that Sleeper One is off a trail you never noticed. That's not revisionism, that's fleshing things out. It's not like Max could have given them GPS coordinates, and I doubt he whipped out a sextant to measure the stars. He would have given them the general location and things to look for, and the Rangers would have had to find the specific location.
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 1st, 2014, 5:27 pm

Stone walls, sure: it's built into a mountain. The doors could have been added after the fact. Furthermore, I wager that every single military base in America (and most anywhere in the world) has some form of chapel. The portcullis isn't completely out of the realm of possibility as a method of blocking off secure locations. Probably not chain-and-pulley, but that could also be after-the-fact jury rigging. Furthermore, look at most of the Outer Sanctum: it's a barracks.
Ok, its possible it was military, but why wouldn't interplay state the connection to the other 3? How do you get around the fact that wl1 states only darwin, sleeper, and cochise are connected? They had a great opportunity to connect all 4, but specifically did not.
Correct, they aren't on the map. However, if you use the reset tool (or recopied floppies if you were C64/Apple user), you could still go to Cochise without ever visiting Vegas. Like I said, it's a programming limitation more than anything, but it could be used as justification.
Without cheating the story plays out such that you have to meet max. Otherwise the plot cant move forward. The player never knows about cochise or sleeper, period. The way interplay designed the game, this is the way it had to play out, no two ways about it. In fact you couldn't even accidentally find them by walking on every single tile of the map. This is because the two locations (cochise & Sleeper) only get added to the tile map only AFTER you meet max.The fact that you are pointing to a cheat to justify your point is ridiculous.
I mean, obviously the Guardians/Cochise link is a retrofit. I agree that it doesn't exist in the original game. However, mild retroactive continuity is common in video game sequels, and the question isn't so much "did WL1 definitively state that the Guardians were working with Cochise" so much as it's "is this plausible given what we know from WL1?"
Thank you for at least admitting it was changed from the original canon. Saying other people do it to justify the wl2 devs is silly as well. Is it plausible? Nope, wl1 was pretty solid on who was connected, nothing vague. Had the paragraph stating only cochise, darwin, and sleeper were connected been left out of the wl1 book, then yes, totally plausible.
I maintain that it's plausible. The Guardians aren't specifically linked to Cochise, but, 1) the Citadel looks very much like it started life as a military base, 2) the Guardians had military-grade hardware (the chopper, the energy weapons, the armor), 3) the Guardians were obsessed with pre-war artifacts and technology. It's a matter of verisimilitude, and I think that the game (especially when coupled with the novellas) does a sufficient job.
I wish I could swallow it as easily, not even kidding. I can see the plausibility of the citadel being a base. Yet, its clearly not directly connected project wise to the other military bases/projects as wl1 states in black and white:

paragraph 90 "Faded but still visible you see a map tacked on the wall of the area before the war. You see a small star that roughly corresponds, as nearly as you can tell, to the base you now stand inside. Almost directly south you see a second star, and directly west, at the map's far edge, you see a third star."
Sleeper, Darwin, and Cochise only.

Image
Ah, but things can't be taken in isolation. Look at the gestalt:

"Let Cochise's boss deal with a fully-aware computer" "complaining about the primitive rules restricting his creativity on this project" "Edsel's new computer is helping to finish Cochise all by itself". Edsel made the Ai, activated it, and likely took the rest of the day off. The Ai could finish construction of cochise itself. Nothing too gray in this as far as I can see.

You have an unstable, antisocial man programming the AI and personality of a super computer, and then letting the partially-finished computer finishing the job by itself. There's no way that doesn't end in tears. Again, the paragraphs aren't coming out and saying "Yo, the Cochise AI was completely nuts, homes" but it looks clear to me that Cochise was never in the same neighborhood as sane.
I don't see where the wl1 text anyone (human or AI) is unstable. Can you quote the part where it says they are unstable for me? I just see dedication/obsession. But let's say 'ol Edsel was nutz, and coded the Ai to be just as nutz. How does that change the fact that the AI was not self aware until the bombs started falling?
This directly contradicts the personnel paragraph you quoted earlier, which says Cochise was finishing its own programming. Maybe it didn't consider itself fully aware, but if a program is finishing itself, it's self aware as far as I'm concerned.
There is zero contradiction. The paragraph states the AI finished the base, not itself. It only tried to fix itself after the bomb hit it. "Edsel's new computer is helping to finish Cochise all by itself" I don't see where it says "Edsel's new computer is helping to finish itself". Edsel typed "run" and the Ai took over construction, then took the rest of the day off...
Well, Matthias thought he was immortal too... until Cochise disabused him of that. And part of the problem was that Cochise couldn't back anything up, because he had no connection to anything else. Sleeper One was offline; Darwin was self-isolated. The Guardians were willing to help, but they were primitive screwheads... and they were mostly wiped out by those jerk Rangers.
The problem with this idea is that nothing in wl1 helps support that in any way, especially since the HUGE elevator wasn't in the citadel of wl1 al all, in any way...not even a huge rug to hide it.. Please explain where the massive elevator was in wl1 please? Then, and only then, I will buy that there was a hard drive in the basement.
Oh, now you're being excessively pedantic (and this is me saying that). If I tell you Joliet is southwest of Chicago, that doesn't mean you can find it, and that doesn't mean that you might not call someone asking for help finding the location. Hell, even the game says that Sleeper One is off a trail you never noticed. That's not revisionism, that's fleshing things out. It's not like Max could have given them GPS coordinates, and I doubt he whipped out a sextant to measure the stars. He would have given them the general location and things to look for, and the Rangers would have had to find the specific location.
Max says"Head northeast from here and, across the bridge, you'll find a hidden base." It's pretty straight forward to find in wl1 on the simple 8 bit tile map based on those directions. The point is, if you don't have this interaction, you dont know sleeper base exists. If you dont know it exists how can you ask anyone about it, right?

Wasteland 2 feels like a highly anticipated Hollywood film like Prometheus. Ridley Scott directed Alien, but didn't write it. You get plot hole riddled Prometheus' when the original writers have little to do with the sequel/prequel combined with the new production team not doing their homework on the original (or intentionally disregarding it?). I was sold on Brian Fargo saying "We're getting the band together" but that didn't actually happen as much as I had hoped. Brian Fargo produced the original Wasteland, but he didn't write it. (Brian did write a few scenarios in wl1 though from what I understand in his defense)

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by WhereisBaoDur » November 2nd, 2014, 4:18 am

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but even if I enjoyed W1 storyline more, some connections like cochise-guardians begged to be explained, and, as far as retrofits go, W2 manage not to mess it up too much (except for the cochise quote, but you could always assume it was lying - it's lame, i know).
when you look at this other quote, though, the fit is pretty neat:
The Hobo guzzles Snake Squeezins the way an assault rifle gobbles bullets. His eyes glaze over and his voice deepens. "Those who guard the past guard the secret to immortality."
I'll withhold judgement until i've got Max and Vegas' cyborgs into the picture.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 2nd, 2014, 8:17 am

WhereisBaoDur wrote: when you look at this other quote, though, the fit is pretty neat:
The Hobo guzzles Snake Squeezins the way an assault rifle gobbles bullets. His eyes glaze over and his voice deepens. "Those who guard the past guard the secret to immortality."
I'll withhold judgement until i've got Max and Vegas' cyborgs into the picture.
That hobo quote was talking about the cloning pods at sleeper. You can get cloning tech skill from the library at the citadel, the monks collected many ancient books, works, tech, etc. over time and deposited at the citadel. Doesn't mean they were connected directly to the cochisne, darwin, sleeper program...

Let's say they were connected...where did the basement come from all of a sudden? lol

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by Drool » November 2nd, 2014, 1:28 pm

I think we're at a complete impasse here, but...
FinsterPrime wrote:The fact that you are pointing to a cheat to justify your point is ridiculous.
The reset tool was included in the original release discs of the IBM launch.
Thank you for at least admitting it was changed from the original canon. Saying other people do it to justify the wl2 devs is silly as well.
Dirty little secret: canon always changes. It has to change, otherwise you can't do sequels. Things need to be tweaked and changed in order to build a sequel. The only time this isn't the case is when a story is mapped out ahead of time and then broken into individual parts. But when you're adding a sequel on, you have to alter things to make the transition, unless the original left off with sequel bait. Which nobody likes.

I understand holding the line on canon, and believe me, I've died on numerous hills fighting for canon, but I'm not going to take the stance of "absolutely nothing not explicitly mentioned in the original can be included in the sequel".
Is it plausible? Nope, wl1 was pretty solid on who was connected, nothing vague. Had the paragraph stating only cochise, darwin, and sleeper were connected been left out of the wl1 book, then yes, totally plausible.
Do you understand the definition of plausible? Was that map made by God? Is it labeled "EVERY SINGLE CONNECTED FACILITY: ANY FACILITY NOT ON THIS MAP IS NOT PART OF THE PROJECT"? Is it possible that the Citadel might be an even more classified facility? Is it possible that whomever labeled that particular map didn't know about Citadel? Hell, maybe the guy marking those stars got called away before he labeled Citadel and never got back to it before dying. Or, if it's a military facility, maybe it just wasn't part of the project, but still connected to DARPANet.

There's a difference between omission and denial. Wasteland doesn't actively state that Citadel is connected, but it also doesn't actively deny it. There's no paragraph saying something like, "The Citadel? Oh, that's a decommissioned base; nobody's used it since they build Darwin."
I don't see where the wl1 text anyone (human or AI) is unstable. Can you quote the part where it says they are unstable for me? I just see dedication/obsession.
Um... obsession is a hallmark of instability.
But let's say 'ol Edsel was nutz, and coded the Ai to be just as nutz. How does that change the fact that the AI was not self aware until the bombs started falling?
Oh, how about Paragraph 91?

"Let Cochise's boss deal with a fully-aware computer."
Max says"Head northeast from here and, across the bridge, you'll find a hidden base." It's pretty straight forward to find in wl1 on the simple 8 bit tile map based on those directions.
Either we're talking past each other, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

"Get off I80 just over the river and head south for a couple miles then go west about half a mile."

There. Now you can find my house, yes? You can't? But those directions are as good as Max's. And it's really easy to spot on 8 bit tile... oh, that's right. The Rangers wouldn't be looking at an 8 bit tile map, they'd be looking at actual landscape. And the fact that it's a hidden base would imply that it's, you know, hidden. There is nothing canon-breaking in having Vargas call to get some help finding the damn place. He's not having the Ranger Center tell him where it is, he's radioing to get a second team (Ghost's) to help him look.


I really think this is a problem of perspective, and drawing lines in different places. I get concerned about direct, active contradictions (I bitched up a storm about the Rail Nomads, for instance), while you seem to take a more strident position of objecting to indirect contradictions. I mean, I'm almost surprised you aren't up in arms about Damonta. After all, WL1 very clearly states that the only thing to the east is "miles and miles of endless wasteland".

I mean, focusing on "the citadel wasn't marked on the map!" seems a little silly when there's plenty of other things to complain about. Like how Highpool is now further north than the Ag Center.
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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 2nd, 2014, 1:39 pm

You can't get past the fact that cochise AI tells you when it be came aware: after ww3 already started. The paragraph 91 is narrating the inevitable outcome in future tense, not the present state. They didn't say "let them deal with THE self aware computer" WL2 is built on the idea the AI stared ww3, which is not possible.

The other thing wl2 bases the core plot on is a NEW basement in the citadel that never existed in wl1 though the basic map layout is more or less the same in both games. However now in wl2 there is an unavoidably HUGE elevator where an open space was in the first game that leads to the basement...It just makes me think of peewee's big adventure and the Alamo...

2 big careless plot holes that are insulting to the intelligence of the original fans that helped make wl2 a reality with their blind support, including mine.

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Re: Wasteland 2 has Major Plot Holes

Post by FinsterPrime » November 2nd, 2014, 5:19 pm

Marthos wrote:The Guardians did have all four of the self-destruct keys for Cochise in their possession. There is some story to be told on how they acquired those.
That's very true. Ok, I'Il can grant you & Drool that it's plausible that the Citadel was once some sort of military facility before being converted to a holy place of tech warship.

It still doesn't account for the basement missing in wl1 or how any escaped alive since there are no random encounters to suggest there are always one or two that have been lurking and then got away, ya know? Once you've killed the last one that place is totally empty.'

I guess ultimately I was extremely upset and disappointed with the game and the story. I'm sure many other people will love it, the game is fun for sure. Sorry If I took out any of my frustration on anyone, especially Drool.

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Re: Wasteland 2 Ending has Major Plot Holes

Post by Priest4hire » November 2nd, 2014, 11:24 pm

FinsterPrime wrote: 3) Arizona - It's just bad story telling to say radiation clouds shifted and prevented communication between the rangers and las vegas, quarts, etc...You are radioing LA but you cant radio the rest of AZ?!! You even have a Helicopter that could fly to vegas etc, but they dont...for no reason.
I know why it's like that. See, originally those places weren't out of contact, they were wiped off the map. So much respect had the devs for the original, that they just casually wiped out the places and NPCs they couldn't be bothered to include. There was a backlash, and so it was changed to out of contact.
4) After wl1 you are unstoppable with power armor and super energy weapons. Why would the rangers not advance their tech after 15 years? Why would they not be uber popular and be able to recruit enough people to properly patrol AZ>?!

6) Instead of the rangers setting up new bases /branches at sleeper, darwin, Vegas etc they decide to NOT do that and not even study the tech each had to offer. The level of tech the rangers had available at the end of wl1 was staggering, but they didnt want it I guess?
This is the result of the devs hitting the reset button, hard. They wanted a Wasteland 1/stock RPG experience in Arizona but that wouldn't be possible if they took the Rangers seriously and progressed them as an organization from the end of the first game. So they contrived a terribly laze excuse to throw the Rangers under the bus and thus reboot Arizona. They could just have easily have had an Arizona under the Rangers and then sent the players to California for the proper RPG experience. But no, mindless nostalgia won out over decent world building and story telling.

PS. I really want to know exactly why it was necessary to rip The Terminator off even more. Was Wasteland really too original and we needed to stamp that out immediately?

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